Abbott-Finch-Osterman stromotion riseballs

[Rick Pauly]

Armwhip brings up a good point about how some pitchers use their wrist. The grip that some of them use is "similar" to that shown on the cover of Ernie Parker's rise video. Now I consider myself to have an ok riseball but even I cannot throw a backspin rise with this grip or by making SLIGHT variations. I need to make several changes to even control the ball. Now, I'm not saying that this grip cannot work! I'm just saying that when I tried to use it, it promoted a flawed wrist action in my own pitching which ruined my spin. I know a lot of girls use this grip (or try to) for their rise. In my opinion, this grip negates the finger action and puts too much wrist into it. When too much wrist is used, the fingers do not turn the right way creating side or bullet spin.... especially when you factor in mechanics where the hips are not cleared by the ball.

Rick, I don't doubt you that both Abbott and Finch could have some 'lift' to their pitches. Anything thrown without downspin will fight against gravity so to speak. Finch should have an easier time throwing a 'low rise' because she gets the sideways sidepin on the ball. Abbott gets too much bullet spin for my taste. I don't know of too many pitchers who can throw a low rise (consistently) with straight backspin. There's too much danger of it going 'up' too much and staying in the middle of the zone. But putting a slight sidespin too it (as Finch's mechanics would do) would possibly add the right mix of both. But, I still don't think she's getting under the ball for a "riseball" by my defintion. And YES, I do realize I'm more picky than most.

bill

Bill

I don't think I've seen any ladies with pure 12/6 backspin on their riseball. I have seen many that have something near 11/5 and it does jump pretty significantly with this orientation; especially if they have 4 seams at spinning at that orientation.

What is it about your grip that produces 12/6 backspin? Are you getting the 4 seam spin orientation?

Back in my day (which was not at an elite level of pitching) I used the tucked finger tip grip and had a decent riseball. But when I view it now my rotation is very similar to what I see on the ladies. Wrist action is similar and other than the "spring loaded effect" the tucked finger tip provides, the rest of the finger action is very similar.

Have you got any frame by frame pics that we could compare?

 

[KWright]

Would it be fair to say that 99.9% of the girls softball pitchers throw their riseball with bullet spin?

 

[Hillhouse]

Hi Rick

There aren't many people PERIOD who can get 12/6 spin on the ball for a rise, male or female. When a pitcher adds the extra movements of the delivery into the pitch, they have a tendency to get their body into positions which contradict the 12/6 spin. But it's got to be close. It cannot be bullet spin or side spin, which is what happens in a lot of the 'examples' used in the great riseball debate. Paul Magan (from New Zealand) was the only guy I'd ever seen who got so far under the ball that he had 1/7 spin! That's almost an upward screw. He was incredible.

I think what makes my riseball somewhat unique compared to what others are taught has little do with the grip. For sure, I use a grip that has benefited me the most but, correct spin is not achieved by 'grip' alone. I use a grip similar to what you mentioned with my finger tip pointing into the ball. However, the key to my riseball is the thumb.

For many years, I've heard pitchers tell me their coach uses the analogy of 'turning a doorknob' for a riseball. I think this is the cause of so many problems. Using the doorknob theory is going to mean that most girls will turn their complete wrist instead of just spinning the ball with their fingers. Too much wrist is the cause of bullet spin and sidespin on the ball.... usually. Although many times, due to a pitchers mechanics they simply cannot get correct rotation because our bodies are not designed to work that way. The "slam the door" mentality is one that completely prevents backspin on a riseball. Have a gap between the arm and body is another big cause for bullet spin.

The grip I use is on the cover of my Riseball DVD. You can see the picture at Softball Pitching DVD Video Series On the armcircle, I keep the tip of my thumb pointed directly at 3rd base. At my release point, my thumb still points to third base, and my finger that is tucked pushes under the ball. Whichever direction the finger ends up, is the direction the ball spun. And in order for the finger to point straight up (for backspin) the thumb must be kept pointing at 3rd base. But the analogy of 'turning the doorknob' usually means the pitcher will put their thumb over the side of the ball or around the side giving the ball a side spin or bullet spin.

Instead of teaching it to be like a doorknob, I tell people to think more like a lightbulb. When you twist a lightbulb, you use finger tips and fingers only. Whether a finger tip is used or not, the thumb still needs to point to 3rd and roll over the back of the ball. It cannot go over the side or around the side of the ball. Those are recipes for side and bullet spin.

Unfortuantely, I don't know any way to really shortcut this process. It takes time and a lot of "elbow grease" to get it right. As we all know, everyone tries to use a new gadget or invention to help. But I don't think anything works as well as hours and hours of practice with a ball and a catcher. IMHO, the riseball is a the litmus test for a pitchers' mechanics and helps them to understand why everything from day 1 is so critical. IF something is wrong early in the delivery, it will effect everything else later... similar to golf.

Rick, I double checked and the video clips are still on my site. There is one from a clinic in the Bahamas where I show this grip and talk about the riseball. Let me know if you can't get it on your computer.

Bill

 

[Rick Pauly]

Bill
I agree 1000% with your description/analysis of the grip/fingers/body position!!!!!!


To "vent" a little something for anyone who cares to listen again----The "elbow grease" Bill refers to is real. And it becomes even harder the longer the pitcher waits to learn to spin the ball backwards like a riseball.
The number one problem I experience with teaching the riseball is that the pitchers hand wants to rotate into a dropball position------of course it does, it has been trained for years to move the fingers directly behind the ball---aka fastball or dropball.

As Bill has suggested---just put a ball in your hand and spin it backwards a lot. You don't have to pitch, you can do this sitting on the couch or even when you are talking on the cell phone.

Young pitchers don't have to throw riseballs----just teach them to spin the ball backwards for when the time comes.

Rick

 

[Hillhouse]

Amen Rick.

Everyone has a 'gadget' out there to help speed up the process and most of them are junk.

Moreover, I will sometimes use the riseball to help pitchers better understand what they are doing wrong in their motions. So I guess you could say, I begin teaching the riseball a lot earlier than most because it helps them to better understand the need for everything we've done up to that point. Sometimes kids have difficulty thinking that ANYTHING is wrong with their motion when they are striking out 18 in their league. The problem is, that number can lie. 18K's doesn't tell me anything about the opponents and doesn't mean she's throwing correctly. It's easy to fall asleep thinking she's on the path to greatness then find out she has to unlearn a lot of muscle memory because her body will not allow her to get into the right position for backspin riseballs. (This is when a lot of people will say "he can do things that girls cannot do!") and they blame gender. NO, it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with different positions our bodies are in during the pitch. My reproductive organs are not helping me pitch.. and if you've ever seen me, you'll know it isn't about muscle. I become quite an unpopular person when I tell people that in their current mechanics, a true riseball can never be accomplished. After I demonstrate it, and show why theirs cannot do that, it's somewhat hard to argue. But, with so many pitching coaches out there teaching so many different 'ways to pitch' I'm sure they will find someone who will tell them what they want to hear. You know... "Lean way back on the riseball and turn the doorknob!!!" Yea, ok. Sorry, I had to rant there too.

FYI... I used to spin a ball with me all the time. In school, at home, and even on dates when I was 16 years old. I would go to the movies, take a ball and spin it. Yes, I went on A LOT of first dates!!


Bill

 

[jofus13]

My DD (13 yr old) is just now starting to work on her riseball, and it has definitely been the hardest pitch for her to work on, which we expected.

Being a Va Tech fan in general, I may be slightly biased, but what do you guys think of Angela Tincher's riseball? To my eyes, she has a good of a riseball as any girl I've seen, and she probably pitches it in games more than most, too.

 

[sluggers]

Tincher threw a no-hitter against Team USA. Not even the Japanese pitcher did that. She is great.

 

[jofus13]

Yes, she is a great pitcher, and a very nice girl if you get the chance to meet her, but I was wondering what Bill and others have to say about her mechanics.

 

[Hillhouse]

I rarely watch softball on TV.. the announcers make it too painful for me. But I did see that girl throw a couple innings and she looked to have the best overall mechanics of anyone I've see (besides Osterman). From TV it was impossible to see the spin of her pitches to know how good/bad they were but, her mechanics looked smooth and effortless, which is a sign that things are correct.

While Sluggers is right about her no hitting the US team, keep in mind that I'll be that was the first time most of the US team had ever seen her before. They probably didn't have a pick on her (reading her pitches) or have an idea of her situational pitches. So, I don't really think that would happen again. Then again, you never know. Some pitchers just have the "number" of certain teams. Your strength is their weakness and it becomes a mismatch. In the case of Japan... I would think the USA would've had a very extensive scouting report on all the pitchers. And, as I wrote in my last newsletter (which I'm still trying to figure out how to post in my website archives) I believe Japan used a 4 year strategy to beat USA. And it worked.

 

[jofus13]

I agree with the announcers comment

Tincher pitched 3 innings against the national team in July with her Pro team the Akron Racers.




(this is a copy and paste...)

"Angela Tincher, who no-hit Team USA on March 26 while pitching for
Virginia Tech, started for the Racers and pitched three innings. She
struck out five and allowed two hits and one earned run."





The Racers played Team Canada a few times over the summer, and I think Tincher pitched in at least one or 2 of those games, but I didn't look up the stats. I think they beat Team Canada every time (or close to it) that they played.

Tincher is now doing pitching lessons, and I may have the chance to get my DD in with her for a few lessons over the winter, if everything works out right She has a pretty good relationship with a couple players/coaches on the organization that my DD played travel ball with this year.