A year into the journey

[Towny9]

I've seen it work wonders for hitters so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. just sayin...

Knowing what pitch is coming is an outstanding advantage to have. My issue isn’t with the “knowing what’s coming part”. As a player I loved relaying pitches as the second base runner to batter. That’s different because there is ample time in baseball between the sign relay and the actual pitch. In softball a delivery takes maybe 1 second from backswing to release? No way is that enough time for me as a hitter - especially when most of us agree thinking about anything other than swing the ball and hitting the ball hard is tough. But I’m open to seeing it work in person as my DD and team I coach gets older.

Now if the hitter can pick it up - like a pitcher who digs in their mitt when throwing offspeed - that’s a whole ‘nother story.

 

[Towny9]

The coach only idenitifies one pitch. The coach comes up with a word to identify the pitch...something innocuous like "take a good rip". So, if the batter hears "take a good rip", she knows it is that pitch.

The Houston Astros used the same methodology...the batter got a signal for a fastball, not for every pitch.

@sluggers I’m totally with you, I know how it works - I coached and played at a high level and have done it myself. The Astros were relaying it well before the pitcher started his delivery and not mid pitch.

 

[765Seth]

I certainly do not want to speak for Java or some of the others that were/are proponents of a short quick backswing but I'll paraphrase my interpretation of their thoughts based on my research of posts made in this forum.

A backswing helps generate a stronger drive which of course adds velo. The bio-mechanics involved with that thought can't be argued. Just watch anyone try to do a standing broad jump with both arms going back versus none. It's a no brainer. It creates momentum. So there is a benefit to a backswing. The reason why a short quick one was preferred was to cut down on the ability for the grip/pitch to be picked. Although most pitches are picked while the ball is in the glove, there is that small possibility that you have a Tim Walton wannabe there at 3rd base (or a batter) who can pick one in the backswing so you try to reduce the chances of that happening. So you gain the additional velo because of the backswing but cut down on the ability for the pitch to be picked by shortening it. Best of both worlds kind of thing.

Again this is simply my interpretation based on reading some old threads here. If I have mis-represented anyone's thoughts, please forgive in advance.

Getting a competitive advantage either hitting or pitching is huge, as everyone knows. As of right now she doesn't change grips on anything she works on throws just orientation of the wrist and elbow does it to a point. She asked why I didn't have a backswing and it was as simple the guys I played against didn't have it. But if you look in the college and professional woman, there are all different types of windup and back swings... its kinda crazy if you think about it

 

[Hillhouse]

Semi long post, warning!

I don't know of any coaches who pick it up in the backswing. That's just when they yell it out. The pick happens when the pitcher doesn't know how to hide their grip of the ball. Yelling it during the backswing makes it too late for the pitcher to change it.

In men's fastpitch, the universal code for a change up is "DO IT". If you watch Mike White at 3rd base during a Texas game (and he is one of the all time best at picking) you'll hear him yell this phrase on nearly every change. Simply eliminating the change up makes a mess for a pitcher. Yes, it would be overwhelming to hear a different "code" for every single pitch. Someone like Adam Folkard who throws 88mph, from 42 feet after his crow hop, doesn't have or has needed a change up much in his life to now. He simply blows it past hitters and challenges them. And at night, under lights, 88 looks like 188. It's hard to explain how fast it is without seeing it first hand. Anyway, for him, the pick would be on his rise or drop. Get one of those 2 pitches and you're 1/2 way to hitting him. But a pitcher with an amazing change up (the most important pitch to have) you need to take that out of their arsenal. If you can pick that, and train your hitters how to react, it's a lethal combo.

I remember pitching against White's team (#1 team in the world) at the 1993 world championship. I got my grip, did my pause to breath, and as I went forward I heard "DO IT!!!!!!" out of their dug out... I thought "OH s**t!!!!!" and purposely threw it over the catcher's head (nobody on base). They called it too soon and I had to make a serious check up to figure out what I did to tip the pitch.

In my years of doing lessons I also did a lot of batting practice to young ladies, college bound or in college. I'm not a hitting coach and could not even begin to help them with their swings, but I could tell them how I'd pitch to them by stance, position in the box and ultimately their swing. Then I'd start showing them the joys of watching the pitcher's grip to see the differences as I'd throw BP. For most, it was lightbulb moments. By not just watching the pitcher's hip (as their taught from 10 yrs old onward) but to LOOK at the hip, they see the ball exposed 2 separate times on a pitcher with a backswing. Once as it goes backward, once as it comes forward. Every single girl I worked on this with was able to eventually see and recognize the the different pitches. And if I purposely threw my riseballs out of the zone in that session, they learned to not even bother swinging or even thinking of it when they saw the grip.

So pitchers with a backswing don't need to be picked by the 3rd base coach. It can be done EASILY from the plate. All they gotta do is look for it, it becomes so painfully obvious to anyone paying attention. Anyone remember the Tenn-AZ College world series final when Ralph Weekly was in the dugout with his head buried in his hands, and Tenn couldn't hit Mowatt's change up?? I scared the bejeezus out of my dog when I was screaming at the TV how obvious her change was to anyone paying the slightest attention. I could see her change up all the way in Pennsylvania, how could TN now see it??????? It simply baffles me.

Or, if you go to YouTube search the name "Jimmy Wana" in the search bar. He has DOZENS of men's FP games from TV, both in New Zealand and North America. Find the 1992 ISC World Final <Sioux City NHCD vs. Victoria Payless> Mike White vs. Mike Piecknik. NHCD was the same team I pitched against a year later, one of the best teams ever assembled. Anyway, watch the game and you'll hear NHDC yelling "DO IT" quite a bit. They had something on the other guy and eliminated his change up. Meanwhile, Whitey (who is harder to pick than a broken nose) used his on almost every batter or so it seemed.

 

[Towny9]

Semi long post, warning!

I don't know of any coaches who pick it up in the backswing. That's just when they yell it out. The pick happens when the pitcher doesn't know how to hide their grip of the ball. Yelling it during the backswing makes it too late for the pitcher to change it.

In men's fastpitch, the universal code for a change up is "DO IT". If you watch Mike White at 3rd base during a Texas game (and he is one of the all time best at picking) you'll hear him yell this phrase on nearly every change. Simply eliminating the change up makes a mess for a pitcher. Yes, it would be overwhelming to hear a different "code" for every single pitch. Someone like Adam Folkard who throws 88mph, from 42 feet after his crow hop, doesn't have or has needed a change up much in his life to now. He simply blows it past hitters and challenges them. And at night, under lights, 88 looks like 188. It's hard to explain how fast it is without seeing it first hand. Anyway, for him, the pick would be on his rise or drop. Get one of those 2 pitches and you're 1/2 way to hitting him. But a pitcher with an amazing change up (the most important pitch to have) you need to take that out of their arsenal. If you can pick that, and train your hitters how to react, it's a lethal combo.

I remember pitching against White's team (#1 team in the world) at the 1993 world championship. I got my grip, did my pause to breath, and as I went forward I heard "DO IT!!!!!!" out of their dug out... I thought "OH s**t!!!!!" and purposely threw it over the catcher's head (nobody on base). They called it too soon and I had to make a serious check up to figure out what I did to tip the pitch.

In my years of doing lessons I also did a lot of batting practice to young ladies, college bound or in college. I'm not a hitting coach and could not even begin to help them with their swings, but I could tell them how I'd pitch to them by stance, position in the box and ultimately their swing. Then I'd start showing them the joys of watching the pitcher's grip to see the differences as I'd throw BP. For most, it was lightbulb moments. By not just watching the pitcher's hip (as their taught from 10 yrs old onward) but to LOOK at the hip, they see the ball exposed 2 separate times on a pitcher with a backswing. Once as it goes backward, once as it comes forward. Every single girl I worked on this with was able to eventually see and recognize the the different pitches. And if I purposely threw my riseballs out of the zone in that session, they learned to not even bother swinging or even thinking of it when they saw the grip.

So pitchers with a backswing don't need to be picked by the 3rd base coach. It can be done EASILY from the plate. All they gotta do is look for it, it becomes so painfully obvious to anyone paying attention. Anyone remember the Tenn-AZ College world series final when Ralph Weekly was in the dugout with his head buried in his hands, and Tenn couldn't hit Mowatt's change up?? I scared the bejeezus out of my dog when I was screaming at the TV how obvious her change was to anyone paying the slightest attention. I could see her change up all the way in Pennsylvania, how could TN now see it??????? It simply baffles me.

Or, if you go to YouTube search the name "Jimmy Wana" in the search bar. He has DOZENS of men's FP games from TV, both in New Zealand and North America. Find the 1992 ISC World Final <Sioux City NHCD vs. Victoria Payless> Mike White vs. Mike Piecknik. NHCD was the same team I pitched against a year later, one of the best teams ever assembled. Anyway, watch the game and you'll hear NHDC yelling "DO IT" quite a bit. They had something on the other guy and eliminated his change up. Meanwhile, Whitey (who is harder to pick than a broken nose) used his on almost every batter or so it seemed.

Bill. Thanks for the explanation. I love the “game within the game” stuff like this.

 

[ArmWhip]

Once the ball is moving it's not easy to pick a grip unless it's something obvious like a knuckle change with a bent curled finger sticking up.

 

[Hillhouse]

Once the ball is moving it's not easy to pick a grip unless it's something obvious like a knuckle change with a bent curled finger sticking up.

With all due respect Arm, that's only partially true. There are MANY other things to look for. Is the wrist curled in the backswing? Do you see more ball in the hand on one pitch vs. another? Is the pitcher palming the ball, indicating a change up? This is just a couple. And this speaks NOTHING about the things pitchers do while obtaining the grip which tip their pitch: digging hand into the glove more, leaving the hand out of the glove more, forearm flexing for tighter grips, is the glove tilted on one pitch vs. another, taking longer pauses on specific pitches, altering the wind up for various pitches? etc. etc. Point being, if you know how to look for things most things will become so obvious you'll wonder why you never noticed before. It's a little disingenuous to say it's not easy to pick up the ball unless a knuckle is showing.

And YES, young female hitters can learn these things. It would be ridiculous to think it can't be done. The problem is, the many coaches don't teach it, either out of ignorance or lack of understanding.

Hire a college or HS age pitcher to throw BP to your team and have them purposely tip the pitches so the hitters can learn how and what to look for. Then, make it progressively harder (if the pitcher can). You'll be amazed at the results. AND, work on drills for hitting the change up. Yes, it's lovely to know it's coming in advance but you need to learn how to hold the hands back. 2 of my good buddies had a drill for this on Youtube, I'll try to find it and post.

 

[ArmWhip]

Once the ball is moving it's not easy to pick a grip

Bill, you listed a whole bunch of things that went way beyond what I posted. Tipping pitches is always a concern but we are talking about a backswing vs coming out of the glove. If having a backswing is such a liability then why isn't it extinct? The fact is that pitchers with backswings outnumber pitchers who come out of the glove by 3-4 to 1. I was just looking at a video of the final plays in the WCWS championship game since 2010 and out of the 10 pitchers only 1, Megan King, came out of the glove.

 

[radness]

JUST wanted to add when hitting
i read the pitchers mechanics and release of pitch.

Back swing or not.

 

[Hillhouse]

Bill, you listed a whole bunch of things that went way beyond what I posted. Tipping pitches is always a concern but we are talking about a backswing vs coming out of the glove. If having a backswing is such a liability then why isn't it extinct? The fact is that pitchers with backswings outnumber pitchers who come out of the glove by 3-4 to 1. I was just looking at a video of the final plays in the WCWS championship game since 2010 and out of the 10 pitchers only 1, Megan King, came out of the glove.

I listed ways that the backswing tips the pitches. You mentioned it's hard to see a knuckle on the ball during the backswing, and I mentioned several other ways (during and not during) the backswing that it is so easy to see.

Why is it still in existence? That's easy. Because the female game hitters haven't been taught until recent years how to use this to their advantage. This is going to sound like an elitist opinion, and it's not meant to be. So, trigger warning for anyone who doesn't like to hear this:. An overwhelming majority of hitting coaches didn't play fastpitch. And before you say, "My DD's coach played D1 for XYZ University!!!" Then I'd ask who taught her to hit? And who was that person's coach? Eventually, in most cases, you find a dad or a guy who was the hitting coach, probably a baseball convert. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying the art of picking pitches doesn't start at a young age and it SHOULD. But it's very clear that the OVERWHELMING majority of male hitting coaches haven't played and don't know how to do this. And now, I can list you 20 guys off the top of my head coaching in D1 that were big time fastpitch players. And that's off the top of my head, there's probably more and even more than that in other divisions of college ball. Even the US Olympic coach Ken Eriksen was on the US men's team. And if you point to Mike Candrea, I'd counter with the fact he ALWAYS has a male fastptich pitcher on staff in one capacity or another for this type thing. That's just one man's opinion though.

What grinds my gears is there are people who think this can't be taught to a young lady. I learned it in my teens, why can't a girl? They can. If the coach knows how to teach it. And as I said, it's not that hard. Do things different when you do BP, or even "soft toss" you can work on having the hitter notice differences for high pitches, low pitches, change ups, etc. IT CAN BE TAUGHT.