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a smooth arm circle??

Sep 11, 2008
74
0
caifornia
i am trying the "show it and throw it" theory of pitching that was posted on this forum earlier by board member. this means you start out the arm circle with the palm facing your body, then around noon the back of the palm is facing the center fielder and you pull down this way before doing an medial pronation of the arm or forearm at the last minute, like ueno does. please correct me if i am wrong!

i notice that when a pitcher starts with the palm toward the body and then fully opens around noon, the hand is automatically in the "show it" position at noon, without turning the arm at all, at least for me. so is there any benefit of turning the arm outward by or before noon?

and assuming my right shoulder (i am right handed) is near the right edge of the pitcher's plate (or middle/right) as i begin my motion, then it is near the middle of the plate as i fully open, on the power line, where your drag foot pivots open, doesn't this necessitate the upper arm/arm, and hence the arm circle itself, not being perfectly circular and smooth? IOW if your shoulder is suddenly going from the edge of the pitchers plate to the middle as you open, then the circle/ball is also going to jerk that way unless you keep your arm at a diagonal angle outward as you approach noon, right?? we're talking a few inches here, but is this a big deal?

thanks!
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,695
0
What you are talking about is referred to as a ‘smooth transition’.

Talking about a RH pitcher here.

When the ball is at the hip, palm towards pitcher.

As it starts up in front, ball/hand rotates smoothly so that at 12:00, palm facing 3rd base.

As it is coming down behind, at around 2:00 or very near that, the palm will be facing 2nd base.

As it continues and starts coming forward in the bottom half of the circle, the wrist rotates more so the palm is close to facing forward.

By the time the hand/ball reaches the hips, the angle it will be or stay on is dependant of the pitch that is being thrown.

I used to have parents do exactly that at one of our first sessions because I wanted them to feel what feels right and comfortable. That way, if someone else tries to have their kid do something that DOES NOT feel comfortable to them, they will question that coach.

Start your wind up doing what I suggested and do it very slowly AND remember to keep a slight bend in the elbow the entire time. Now do several arm circles without stopping and remembering to rotate the arm like I described. It feels very smooth and comfortable.

Now go faster, remembering to rotate it. Now do a dozen or so real fast, again, remembering to rotate it. Piece a cake!

Now try two or three slowly and DON’T rotate it as I described. It does not feel good, comfortable, right or even safe now does it?

If a pitching coach or instructor ever asks your kid to do something that you cannot do yourself (where it feels safe and comfortable when you do it yourself), stop the action and question the coach.

You want the head of the upper arm bone to have a smooth transition in the socket, ESPECIALLY at the point in the circle when the landing foot touches down, around 1:00. The body is slightly jarred with a smooth landing and greatly jarred with a landing that is less than smooth. If that timing is off for the landing foot and arm circle, it can damage your shoulder.

If the coach says throw with a locked elbow, don’t do it, you will get hurt eventually.

If the coach has your timing other than what I described, strongly question it.

If the coach has a pitcher coming down with a locked and straight knee (no slight knee bend) don’t do it, you will get hurt.

If the angle of the landing foot is off much from 45 degrees at landing foot touchdown, strongly question it.

Bottom line, don’t have your kid doing something you cannot do without hurting YOURSELF.
:)

Winning Fast Pitch Softball
 
Feb 14, 2009
23
0
hal ,
the "smooth transition " you described is a natural movement of the arm . Ask any kid to windmill most will do what you described , I never had any pitching lessons , but that is the way I have always pitched . I am a step off pitcher try to learn to explode off the mound . keep posting the good infromation .
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,723
38
i am trying the "show it and throw it" theory of pitching that was posted on this forum earlier by board member. this means you start out the arm circle with the palm facing your body, then around noon the back of the palm is facing the center fielder and you pull down this way before doing an medial pronation of the arm or forearm at the last minute, like ueno does. please correct me if i am wrong!
You are correct.........

i notice that when a pitcher starts with the palm toward the body and then fully opens around noon, the hand is automatically in the "show it" position at noon, without turning the arm at all, at least for me.
You are correct again.......It's natural.........

so is there any benefit of turning the arm outward by or before noon?
Seems you already know the answer to that..........You are correct that the hand/arm WILL open naturally...........

Do not intentionally rotate the arm/ball outward on the way up the circle........Intentional "INVERSION" (outward rotation of the forearm) it isn't necessary, and can cause "over-rotation" of the hand and forearm at the top, which puts the hand on top the ball on the downswing.

The ball should never face outward prior to the top of the circle.........This is why I "cringe" everytime I see a pitching student performing the "wiping the wall" drill up the circle.........

The ONLY reason you should have to "insert" early outward rotation is if the starting position REQUIRES rotation to get back into a natural position.........IE, palm forward to start the upward half of the circle........

The ball should never be "pushed" up the circle OR "pushed" down the circle.........

and assuming my right shoulder (i am right handed) is near the right edge of the pitcher's plate (or middle/right) as i begin my motion, then it is near the middle of the plate as i fully open, on the power line, where your drag foot pivots open, doesn't this necessitate the upper arm/arm, and hence the arm circle itself, not being perfectly circular and smooth?
Be very careful of "the perfect circle" mentality......The most important part of the circle begins as the hand passes over the top and down through the release motion...........By this time, the shoulders have opened, and the delivery circle pivot point is established........

IOW if your shoulder is suddenly going from the edge of the pitchers plate to the middle as you open, then the circle/ball is also going to jerk that way unless you keep your arm at a diagonal angle outward as you approach noon, right?? we're talking a few inches here, but is this a big deal?

thanks!
Like I said, the most important part of the circle is established after the shoulders open and after the hand begins moving over the top and down through the delivery phase.........

Watch Jelly Seldon's forward arm swing, and how much it differs from her downward circle through the delivery phase........



Also remember that keeping the correct elbow bend allows for the shoulders to add force by opening and closing during the circle, and then adjusting the mechanism into the line of force........

Step through Finch and watch how it works.............
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,695
0
"Also remember that keeping the correct elbow bend allows for the shoulders to add force by opening and closing during the circle, and then adjusting the mechanism into the line of force........"

SAY WHAT????

Keeping the elbow locked and straight effectively locks out the large upper arm muscles from contributing to ball speed. Therefore; keeping a bend in the elbow allows the large upper arm muscles to contribute to ball speed.

Let me remember now,

1. The elbow contributes a maximum of 4% of overall ball speed.
2. The hand contributes a maximum of 1% of overall ball speed.

How much dothe shoulders opening and closing contribute to overall ball speed? Answer; so little it wasnt even mentioned in the report.

The shoulders opening and closing and exactly how much they do play a very big role depending on the specific pitch being thrown and exactly where the release point for that pitch is.

If you track Jelly's hand motion you will see she is releasing in front of the front hip and the ball hand is cutting straight to the left side across her waist. THAT is why her shoulders are closing so much at release point, it is necessary to throw a true cutter. IT IS NOT BEING DONE TO ADD SPEED.
 
Sep 11, 2008
74
0
caifornia
You are correct.........

The ONLY reason you should have to "insert" early outward rotation is if the starting position REQUIRES rotation to get back into a natural position.........IE, palm forward to start the upward half of the circle..........

The ball should never be "pushed" up the circle OR "pushed" down the circle.........
Thanks board member! you understood my question perfectly!

i'm just curious, when do you need to do palm forward to start the upward half of the circle?


Be very careful of "the perfect circle" mentality......The most important part of the circle begins as the hand passes over the top and down through the release motion...........By this time, the shoulders have opened, and the delivery circle pivot point is established........
thank you. yes i am a perfectionist and that kills me sometimes, but after seeing angelica and also michele smith, it's easy to see that their upward circle basically goes far inward then they come back out, so the arm circle is not really a true/perfect circle along a 2-dimensional plane


Also remember that keeping the correct elbow bend allows for the shoulders to add force by opening and closing during the circle, and then adjusting the mechanism into the line of force........
by mechanism, i am assuming you mean arm circle?
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,723
38
class_of_2012 said:
i'm just curious, when do you need to do palm forward to start the upward half of the circle?
IMO, never..........

Keeping the elbow locked and straight effectively locks out the large upper arm muscles from contributing to ball speed. Therefore; keeping a bend in the elbow allows the large upper arm muscles to contribute to ball speed.
This is true of elbow bend as well......

halskinner said:
IT IS NOT BEING DONE TO ADD SPEED.
This is also true.......

However, addition of velocity IS a byproduct........It's a cause and effect formula.........

A ferris wheel rotating on a fixed pivot point maintains it's angular velocity.

As ferris wheel rotating on a pivot point that is moving in the direction of the angular momentum increases the angular velocity.........



Class, just for fun you can study the muscles of the shoulder complex and their respective effects on the movement of the upper arm Here.......

As you step through the menu of muscles and related movement, toggle back to Ueno and see if you can identify some of the movements she uses to throw 70mph........
 

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