I've never seen this, is it normal? Umpire issue

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

Aug 20, 2018
107
28
So this weekend my team was playing in a tournament and I encountered a few things I've never had happen in 10+ years of coaching.

First. Early in the game there was a play at first in which my team hit the ball down 3rd base line and the girl made a great play and threw across the diamond. The throw was slightly short so the girl had to stretch for it and pulled her foot off the base. The outfield up, who was behind the shortstop called her out. I asked him for an appeal to the home plate ump, who had a better view, and he told me "No, you're not getting an appeal" I looked to the home ump, he said "Unless he asks for help, I can't do anything."

Second. Their player was running to 1st and ran through the base. She made a turn towards 2nd, stepped into the field of play and walked back towards 1st. My player tagged her because she made that step. I'm not sure if she thought about 2nd or not, but she clearly stepped into the field of play. Again, the ump is behind the shortstop, calls her safe and I asked for an appeal. Like the last time, he told me "No." I walked out and asked him if we could please get a second opinion from the home ump because he can see down the line. He told me "Not a chance" and walked away from me.

Third (and final). Their girl bunted down 1st baseline. As she broke down the line, she kicked the ball. She was clearly out of the box. The home ump called her out. The field ump jumped in and said "No, she was in the box, thats a foul ball, she goes back." I asked the plate ump "Isn't that your call, not his?" And he just shrugged.

After the game I tried to talk to both umps and was met with a ton of disrespect. I said "Twice, I asked for an appeal and twice you denied it, why would you do that?" He said "Because I didn't need help, I know I'm right" I was angry and made it clear, he then told me that I was "A terrible coach and needed to go home".


Basically, I'm just wondering if I'm totally wrong here and the field umps don't allow for appeals and regularly deny them. I've never encountered it, but I've only been doing travel ball a short time. I've never seen it in HS ball.
 
Mar 14, 2017
453
43
Michigan
First: Were you specific on what you wanted appealed on the pulled foot?

Second: You can't appeal a judgment call & he judged she didn't make an attempt for second. It doesn't matter how she turned or if she was in fair territory. She has to attempt to go to second.

Third: Again in the ump's judgement she was in the box.

The best umpire I know told me, "If you let appeal your calls then they will ask all the time."

Also it depends on how you ask. Did you scream across the field? Were you yelling and rude? Did you politely ask for time and clearly state what you wanted appealed?
 
Jul 9, 2016
240
28
So this weekend my team was playing in a tournament and I encountered a few things I've never had happen in 10+ years of coaching.




Second. Their player was running to 1st and ran through the base. She made a turn towards 2nd, stepped into the field of play and walked back towards 1st. My player tagged her because she made that step. I'm not sure if she thought about 2nd or not, but she clearly stepped into the field of play. Again, the ump is behind the shortstop, calls her safe and I asked for an appeal. Like the last time, he told me "No." I walked out and asked him if we could please get a second opinion from the home ump because he can see down the line. He told me "Not a chance" and walked away from me.


Basically, I'm just wondering if I'm totally wrong here and the field umps don't allow for appeals and regularly deny them. I've never encountered it, but I've only been doing travel ball a short time. I've never seen it in HS ball.

I will comment on your second situation.

Was talking with Blue yesterday about runner to first can turn either left or right when shutting down after touching first.

Either way is fine.

But an aggressive move to second base, the runner must go.

Now I knew this at least 5 years ago, but a lot of people will get this call wrong.
 
Aug 20, 2018
107
28
First: Were you specific on what you wanted appealed on the pulled foot?

Second: You can't appeal a judgment call & he judged she didn't make an attempt for second. It doesn't matter how she turned or if she was in fair territory. She has to attempt to go to second.

Third: Again in the ump's judgement she was in the box.

The best umpire I know told me, "If you let appeal your calls then they will ask all the time."

Also it depends on how you ask. Did you scream across the field? Were you yelling and rude? Did you politely ask for time and clearly state what you wanted appealed?


1. Yup, I said she pulled her foot, on the stretch. He didn't want to hear anything about that.

2. I can deal with that, but I've had this call appealed before, but my issue was more in his disregard.

3. Wait, the field ump, standing behind the shortstop can make that judgement call over the plate up that called her out? The plate ump could see the box and could see where she kicked it. Isn't that his call?.

As far as how I asked, every time I was calm, polite and cool. It wasn't until after the game when he was really rude that I responded in kind.
 

Strike2

Allergic to BS
Nov 14, 2014
2,044
113
First, there's no such thing as an "appeal" on an umpire's call. Judgement calls are final unless the umpire making that call decides to seek help from his/her partner(s). Some umps get really pissy if you show them up even a little. Generally, they don't like the word "appeal", and one ump can't (or shouldn't) directly overrule another. After approaching the FU quietly, tell him that you believe 1B's foot was off the bag, he might not have been able to see it from his position, and would he ask the Home umpire if he saw that as well. Most field umpires will talk to the plate umpire in that situation, and then adjust the call accordingly. For those few that refuse regardless of the circumstances, a visit to the UIC and TD after the game is warranted.

Second, a runner can overrun 1B and turn either right or left. Stepping onto the field of play doesn't matter...it matters what the Umpire believes their intent to be. Nothing wrong with trying the tag, but unless there was a definite move to 2B, that call will be a longshot. Field umps aren't likely to ask for help on a call like that.

Third, very bad technique by the FU. He should have approached the PU, told him what he saw, and let the PU decide whether to reverse the call. I would definitely mention that one to the UIC & TD after the game. Umpires are supposed to work as a team and speak with one voice. One trying to publicly override another's call is bad form.
 
Last edited:
Oct 11, 2018
231
43
So this weekend my team was playing in a tournament and I encountered a few things I've never had happen in 10+ years of coaching.

First. Early in the game there was a play at first in which my team hit the ball down 3rd base line and the girl made a great play and threw across the diamond. The throw was slightly short so the girl had to stretch for it and pulled her foot off the base. The outfield up, who was behind the shortstop called her out. I asked him for an appeal to the home plate ump, who had a better view, and he told me "No, you're not getting an appeal" I looked to the home ump, he said "Unless he asks for help, I can't do anything."

Second. Their player was running to 1st and ran through the base. She made a turn towards 2nd, stepped into the field of play and walked back towards 1st. My player tagged her because she made that step. I'm not sure if she thought about 2nd or not, but she clearly stepped into the field of play. Again, the ump is behind the shortstop, calls her safe and I asked for an appeal. Like the last time, he told me "No." I walked out and asked him if we could please get a second opinion from the home ump because he can see down the line. He told me "Not a chance" and walked away from me.

Third (and final). Their girl bunted down 1st baseline. As she broke down the line, she kicked the ball. She was clearly out of the box. The home ump called her out. The field ump jumped in and said "No, she was in the box, thats a foul ball, she goes back." I asked the plate ump "Isn't that your call, not his?" And he just shrugged.

After the game I tried to talk to both umps and was met with a ton of disrespect. I said "Twice, I asked for an appeal and twice you denied it, why would you do that?" He said "Because I didn't need help, I know I'm right" I was angry and made it clear, he then told me that I was "A terrible coach and needed to go home".


Basically, I'm just wondering if I'm totally wrong here and the field umps don't allow for appeals and regularly deny them. I've never encountered it, but I've only been doing travel ball a short time. I've never seen it in HS ball.

On situation #1. That is a perfect time for an umpire to get help. From the SS hole he can not see a pulled foot. The player would be stepping directly towards him and he has no angle. If that is what you asked for, he should have been willing to get help in that situation.
On situation #2. There is no problem with turning left or stepping into the field of play. In order to be susceptible to being tagged out after over running 1st base, the runner must "attempt" to go to 2nd. Just crossing the line into fair territory does not put the runner at risk. They can even take a somewhat wide left turn without "attempting" towards 2nd.
On situation #3. The way you describe it sounds a bit aggressive of the base ump. When a batter bats the ball into them, sometimes the plate umpire can't see it if the umpire is blocked out by the batter's body and this is where the base umpire can help. But in your situation, it sounds like the plate umpire saw the contact and made the call. If the base umpire had something to offer here, he should have discussed with the plate umpire and not just blurted out his opinion. in this case it sounds like the plate umpire already made the call. Just like in your 1st case, the plate umpire said he could not get involved because the base ump did not request help. The plate ump did not request help and should have stuck with his call. Maybe he was a newbie and intimidated by the base ump, but the base ump was out of line. The plate ump has a much better view of where the runner is than someone 70 to 80 feet away. [BTW, similar situation in the Red Sox - Astro's game tonight. Plate umpire did not see the ball contact Bradley, the batter, and called a fair ball. What's interesting is that with 5 other umpires on the field for a play-off game, not one of the other umpires saw the contact in the box, either. Good thing they decided to check the video.]
 
Last edited:
Jun 12, 2015
3,848
83
I've noticed a trend with asking for help. More and more umpires in our age group anyway are flat refusing and getting very pissy about it no matter how polite the request. Last year it happened to DH several times and he's very respectful to umpires. My theory is crazy parents have run most of the good ones off to older age groups (we're 12U), or even run them off entirely, and what's left are the egotistical power trippers, in large part.

My understanding is it doesn't really matter where the runner goes after crossing 1B; it's the umpire's judgment about whether she made an attempt to go to 2B.

We've had a handful that were so bad I was really tempted to complain to the director. Until teams start doing that, how can the directors know which ones are a problem? But you also don't want to be that team who complains about the umpires, so I never do say anything. I'm not sure what the answer is, other than to convince 10U and 12U parents to just shut up and cheer (so the good ones stick around). We're not good at that as a rule. lol
 
Dec 11, 2010
4,713
113
I've noticed a trend with asking for help. More and more umpires in our age group anyway are flat refusing and getting very pissy about it no matter how polite the request. Last year it happened to DH several times and he's very respectful to umpires. My theory is crazy parents have run most of the good ones off to older age groups (we're 12U), or even run them off entirely, and what's left are the egotistical power trippers, in large part.

We've had a handful that were so bad I was really tempted to complain to the director. Until teams start doing that, how can the directors know which ones are a problem? But you also don't want to be that team who complains about the umpires, so I never do say anything. I'm not sure what the answer is, other than to convince 10U and 12U parents to just shut up and cheer (so the good ones stick around). We're not good at that as a rule. lol

I really noticed a difference last summer, (summer of ‘18). 16u. I had always been impressed with umpires at national events. It seemed like they were professional, knew the rules and did a great job. They blended into the backdrop. Last summer it seemed like the umpires were looking for conflict and got bent out of shape at every opportunity. I don’t know how it could be the parents at national events- parents usually know that anything out of line gets your dd blackballed from the recruiting process. I personally think TCS made a huge mistake with the rule that any coach thrown out of a game would have his team disqualified. That only seemed to increase the tension. Let’s be honest- umpires throwing coaches out is part of the game.

Smart umpires don’t get drawn into foolishness created by coaches trying to create foolishness. They mitigate it. When you are a person of authority you learn real quick to pick your battles. Some lines cannot be crossed but you can’t treat every little jab by a coach or fan as an unforgivable affront to your authority. When you play that game you are weakening your authority and the authority of every other umpire in that tournament.

Yes, coaches of teams expected to pony up the ever more ridiculous fees should respectfully complain. And Uic’s need to mentor the umpires and get them better. And yes, some coaches are jerks but some umpire isn’t going to fix that. Umpires should work with the uic’s and td’s when there is a problem.
 
Last edited:

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
First, there's no such thing as an "appeal" on an umpire's call. Judgement calls are final unless the umpire making that call decides to seek help from his/her partner(s). Some umps get really pissy if you show them up even a little. Generally, they don't like the word "appeal", and one ump can't (or shouldn't) directly overrule another. After approaching the FU quietly, tell him that you believe 1B's foot was off the bag, he might not have been able to see it from his position, and would he ask the Home umpire if he saw that as well. Most field umpires will talk to the plate umpire in that situation, and then adjust the call accordingly. For those few that refuse regardless of the circumstances, a visit to the UIC and TD after the game is warranted.

Second, a runner can overrun 1B and turn either right or left. Stepping onto the field of play doesn't matter...it matters what the Umpire believes their intent to be. Nothing wrong with trying the tag, but unless there was a definite move to 2B, that call will be a longshot. Field umps aren't likely to ask for help on a call like that.

Third, very bad technique by the FU. He should have approached the PU, told him what he saw, and let the PU decide whether to reverse the call. I would definitely mention that one to the UIC & TD after the game. Umpires are supposed to work as a team and speak with one voice. One trying to publicly override another's call is bad form.

^^^ THIS

But let me add, what the base umpire did was unethical and in violation of (in USA) 10.3.B. That is an issue for the UIC and is not a point of appeal or protest
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
First, there's no such thing as an "appeal" on an umpire's call. Judgement calls are final unless the umpire making that call decides to seek help from his/her partner(s). Some umps get really pissy if you show them up even a little. Generally, they don't like the word "appeal", and one ump can't (or shouldn't) directly overrule another. After approaching the FU quietly, tell him that you believe 1B's foot was off the bag, he might not have been able to see it from his position, and would he ask the Home umpire if he saw that as well. Most field umpires will talk to the plate umpire in that situation, and then adjust the call accordingly. For those few that refuse regardless of the circumstances, a visit to the UIC and TD after the game is warranted.

Second, a runner can overrun 1B and turn either right or left. Stepping onto the field of play doesn't matter...it matters what the Umpire believes their intent to be. Nothing wrong with trying the tag, but unless there was a definite move to 2B, that call will be a longshot. Field umps aren't likely to ask for help on a call like that.

Third, very bad technique by the FU. He should have approached the PU, told him what he saw, and let the PU decide whether to reverse the call. I would definitely mention that one to the UIC & TD after the game. Umpires are supposed to work as a team and speak with one voice. One trying to publicly override another's call is bad form.

Third situation is not the way it should be handled as MTR points out, but the others are really not (and are 'you had to be there' to see what happened)

First - coaches who come flying out of the dugout screaming and shouting and so on are not going to get anywhere. Also how you question the call matters - it has to be something beyond just questioning a judgement - "pulled foot" is a perfect one - but even then if the umpire is SURE the foot was fine, he is still not going to talk to his partner. I know we have been told locally to restrict 'fishing expeditions' for a call by coaches. Most coaches don't seem to get what an umpire should go to the other umpire for, and what they shouldn't. In judgement calls it can't just be "I think you were wrong" it has to be something like "Her foot was off the bag" or the "ball was on the ground" or similar and the umpire who made the call would have to absolutely believe he didn't actually see something different. I had a call last week where I was in perfect position on a steal to see the tag and that the runner was out...not going to the other umpire on that ever when I am 100% in perfect position and saw everything over my partner who is the whole infield away.

I know before it was explained to me in detail by one of the best umpires in our area, I screwed this up many a time as a coach.

The other thing coaches also need to understand is that the other umpire is probably not ball watching if there are runners on and they are moving into position as the umpires mechanics tell them. So often in these situations, field has the first throw, and the plate is watching the lead runner or getting in position to anticipate the 'next play' and so at best they may have a peripheral view which is not great for making a call unless it is really, really obvious. It is a limitation of 2 umpires (and sometimes even 3 umpires or even 6 umpires) especially if there is a runner on 3B.

Lastly - as an umpire, if you didn't see something, you don't make it up. You never assume anything. You either saw it or you didn't. Sometimes that is going to hurt when you miss a call, but that is how it works.

Despite all of the above, my goal is to limit and eliminate 'gross mistakes' and I will absolutely go to my partner for help when appropriate. I will do it without the coach even coming out when appropriate.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,474
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top