rounding 1st on a walk

Pigskinguru34 said:

Comp and others you can ask ASA/USA umps and they will tell you it is an interpretation call and 6 umps in a room can have 6 different interpretations. I am just telling you what I have seen called on a consistent basis and the umps have used as the reason for calling the runner out immediately.

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Experienced ASA/USA umps have been asked. Their names are Comp, MTR, CPEM...and probably some others in this thread, too. They have all said exactly the same thing.

As for interpretation, the quote of Supplement 34 F I posted above is pretty damn clear.

Pigskinguru34 said:

Comp and others you can ask ASA/USA umps and they will tell you it is an interpretation call and 6 umps in a room can have 6 different interpretations. I am just telling you what I have seen called on a consistent basis and the umps have used as the reason for calling the runner out immediately.

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No, there should not be 6 different interpretations of the rule, if there are then you have a bunch of umpires that need to sit down and study their rule book and go to some rules clinics. The rule is pretty cut and dried and there really should be no variance in how it is called. Any rule clinic I have ever attended, when the lookback rule uses the term immediate in the sense of a runner must immediately advance or return, that has generally been defined as the runner may stop, then find the ball and have a brief moment to make a decision as to which direction they are going to go.

Comp said:

I have no idea what you think you are reading but much of what you are stating is false. A walked batter has all the same rights as if they had batted the ball. They may round 1st, stop, and then immediately choose to return to 1st or continue on to 2nd. Now there is a difference in if the batter/runner runs through 1st base and then turns left in short right field and starts for 2nd, in that situation they must continue non stop unless the pitcher makes a play on them. If the ball is with the pitcher in the circle when the batter/runner runs through 1st base, if they turn and move back toward 1st base they are committed to 1st and must return directly to 1st. If the ball is not with the pitcher in the circle when they turn around they can still break for 2nd if they choose.

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Is "rounding" considered the same as "running through?" Either way, if the pitcher has the ball in the circle before the batter/runner reaches 1st, wouldn't continuing on towards second be the first decision, and then if she stops or reverses that would be the second stop or decision?

General question on the LBR. If a runner is advancing to a base after the pitcher gets the ball, can she keep running to the next base without stopping? Or does she have to stop at the first base she reaches if the pitcher doesn't attempt to make a play?

I'm not arguing, just trying to understand the rules.

dbronstein said:

Is "rounding" considered the same as "running through?" Either way, if the pitcher has the ball in the circle before the batter/runner reaches 1st, wouldn't continuing on towards second be the first decision, and then if she stops or reverses that would be the second stop or decision?

General question on the LBR. If a runner is advancing to a base after the pitcher gets the ball, can she keep running to the next base without stopping? Or does she have to stop at the first base she reaches if the pitcher doesn't attempt to make a play?

I'm not arguing, just trying to understand the rules.

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The pitcher having the ball in the circle does not stop playing action, it simply activates the lookback rule. If the lookback rule is in effect, if a runner stops at a base they must remain there or be called out for leaving (assuming the pitcher does not make a play). A batter/runner or runner legally running the bases may continue to run with liability to be put out as long as they were legally advancing prior to the pitcher having the ball in the circle.

No, rounding the base is not the same as running straight through the base. Running through the base means exactly what it says, the batter/runner runs straight through first toward right field, if they then turn left and head toward 2nd they are committed to 2nd and must proceed non stop unless the pitcher plays on them. Rounding the base also means exactly what it say and would be the same as any batter who runs to first and rounds the base waiting to see if the defense has missed the ball and deciding if they can advance further. After the lookback rule is in effect, an advancing runner is allowed to stop and may then either continue to advance or choose to return. Nothing in any rule set says a batter/runner who is walked is out if they round 1st and do not continue to run. Any umpire that calls that has no idea of the rule.

On other small intricacy of the rule is you have to know when the pitcher got the ball in the circle and what the runner was doing when the pitcher got the ball in the circle. If the runner is stationary when the lookback rule goes into effect, when they make a move they have chosen the direction they are going to go and cannot stop or reverse direction. However, if the runner is moving when the lookback rule goes into effect, the runner still may stop and then choose either direction they wish to go.

Couple times this past summer I saw players run straight through first base bag (either walk or hit). The players turned around and started jogging back to first base bag (did not touch first base bag)and then ran to second base. (Note: the player did not round first base rather ran through the bag). Sometimes the runner was called out and other times the girl was at second base. What is the official rule for this?

DiamondDad316 said:

Couple times this past summer I saw players run straight through first base bag (either walk or hit). The players turned around and started jogging back to first base bag (did not touch first base bag)and then ran to second base. (Note: the player did not round first base rather ran through the bag). Sometimes the runner was called out and other times the girl was at second base. What is the official rule for this?

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It has already been posted in several spots throughout this thread. If the pitcher has the ball in the circle when the batter/runner who has overrun 1st base turns and moves back toward 1st base, they are committed to 1st and would be in violation of the lookback rule and are out. If the ball is not in the circle with the pitcher when the turn around and start back, they are still free to break for 2nd.

Now, if what you have seen is in a college game, then the rule is different. A batter/runner who has overrun 1st can still break for 2nd any time up until they return and touch 1st base.

Pigskinguru34 said:

ASA/USA rule 8-7-T and further explained under Rules Supplement #34.

NFHS rule - see ASA/USA rule

Problem comes down to umpires and interpretation - some allow 3 seconds to return and others invoke the no reverse field part of it but all seem to invoke no go to second go to first go back to second.

I am just saying that I have consistently seen over the last 3 ways the rule being instilled like the original poster said his friend had called against them in a game. So that is why the girls are not rounding first to go to 2nd unless we know the other team is not contesting it or we are in a close game and looking to get in a rundown for the runner at 3rd to score.

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And how did your protests turn out? I can assure you that no, nil, nada, zip, zero, none of the ASA/USA umpires have been taught such a thing over the past 30 years by a true clinician. Now, you may have some wannabe experts who believe they know how the game is or should be officiated that pass along bullshit rules to unsuspecting trainees in a local environment, but I doubt that you just happen to draw all those umpires.

OTOH, the LBR is an antiquated rule that should have never been inserted into the game of FP softball.

That's the problem with the rule...experienced coaches and umpires get confused on the details to often.

The other issue is that if I teach my players the correct way, by the rule book, and the umpire calls them out I have no choice but to protest. I can't look my players in the eye when they come to me and say the did exactly what I told them to do and still got called out.

Either I am teaching it wrong or the umpire doesn't understand the rule. One of us needs to sort it out...it's never personal with me, sometimes I get a rule interpretation wrong.

The LBR was never supposed to just be a cheap out for the defense.

I read all 4 pages yet am still not clear on the rule.

This past summer our girl walked (BB), ran to first, immediately headed for second (rounded first), broke stride for a split second (hesitated like a stutter step), and continued heading towards second base. She was called out. She never stopped.