Temporary Fence Fiasco - What's your call?

I witnessed something new today at the ISC Men's Fastball Championships.

ISC plays under USA rules.
Outfield is 4ft temporary sport fence.

R1 and R2, 0 out. 3rd Inning 1 run game.
Batter hits deep fly to CF. F8 is backpedalling to the fence and makes the catch just as he makes contact. He falls backwards and the fence section collapses under him (as it is designed to do). I didn't actually see the next part but others around claimed to so for the purpose of the discussion assume it's fact... when F8 falls to the ground the ball drops out of his glove and sits on the now horizontal fence. This is beyond the imaginary wall of the original fence. He picks up the ball and returns it to the infield.
Runners were unsure what to do but end up all advancing one base.

After ball is returned to IF the FU1 (3 ump system) points to the ground and gives safe sign.
OC charges out looking for a HR
DC charges out looking for catch
30 players leave the dugouts to bark at umpires.
Umpires conference for several minutes...
What's your call?

kjs23 said:

I witnessed something new today at the ISC Men's Fastball Championships.

ISC plays under USA rules.
Outfield is 4ft temporary sport fence.

R1 and R2, 0 out. 3rd Inning 1 run game.
Batter hits deep fly to CF. F8 is backpedalling to the fence and makes the catch just as he makes contact. He falls backwards and the fence section collapses under him (as it is designed to do). I didn't actually see the next part but others around claimed to so for the purpose of the discussion assume it's fact... when F8 falls to the ground the ball drops out of his glove and sits on the now horizontal fence. This is beyond the imaginary wall of the original fence. He picks up the ball and returns it to the infield.
Runners were unsure what to do but end up all advancing one base.

After ball is returned to IF the FU1 (3 ump system) points to the ground and gives safe sign.
OC charges out looking for a HR
DC charges out looking for catch
30 players leave the dugouts to bark at umpires.
Umpires conference for several minutes...
What's your call?

Click to expand...

I believe I have this right... I may be corrected by someone.

As described under USA Softball rules my call is:
- As described, the ball has not touched dead ball territory (and under USA Softball if it is ON the downed fence it has not) so it is a straight play called as you would any catch/no catch scenario
- Therefore the ball is live and you would call it like any live play. If the catch was completed before the ball came out, then the batter will be out and as long as runners tagged up they are good. If no catch, everyone advanced a base and that would mean there is no call to make.

If at ANY stage the ball or the player possessing the ball has touched a dead ball area (i.e. the actual ground beyond the fence, then we either have a catch and carry if the catch was completed before the dead ball area was touched (batter out + 1 base award for baserunners) or if no catch a Home Run if it hit the dead ball area without hitting the ground (including the downed fence) or a ground rule double (if it hits the ground or the downed fence before going into a dead ball area.

In ASA/USA Softball this was actually covered in a July 2018 Rules Clarification/Case document:
Play: (Fast Pitch) Teams are playing on a field with a temporary fence. B1 hits a long fly ball which F7 catches and makes contact with the temporary fence that falls flat to the ground. At contact with the fence the ball pops loose from F7 and lands on the fallen fence. What is the ruling?
Ruling:If the umpire judged F7 did not have control of the ball prior to hitting the fence then we have no catch. Since the ball is still lying on the fence it is a live ball and runners can advance at their own risk. (Rule 1 Definitions: Catch/No Catch). (Rule 8, Section 5I) R/S 20.

So a downed temp fence actually becomes part of the live field area.

For NCAA & NFHS fastpitch I believe it is different A downed temp fence in these rulesets DOES NOT become part of the live area and the ball would by lying in dead ball territory. in this case it would be a catch and carry if it was judged a catch before they touched a dead ball area (which is any area as the fence as it stood) - so out on the catch, 1 base for each player or a home run if there is no catch. Downed temp fences are considered in the dead ball area if they fall into the area beyond the field of play.

I'd need to see the play. I know these are online. Which game was this?

This was Twins vs Hill United, Game 68
Go to 46:30 in the video. They didn't get a shot of the actual catch/drop on the video. Maybe a good lipreader could translate the conversations with the officials.
Looking at the video now it seems I misremembered the result. R2 ended up scoring on the play.
Thanks marriard for the detailed references. I was sure I had seen a caseplay somewhere but it wasn't in the Softball Canada casebook.

kjs23 said:

This was Twins vs Hill United, Game 68
Go to 46:30 in the video. They didn't get a shot of the actual catch/drop on the video. Maybe a good lipreader could translate the conversations with the officials.
Looking at the video now it seems I misremembered the result. R2 ended up scoring on the play.
Thanks marriard for the detailed references. I was sure I had seen a caseplay somewhere but it wasn't in the Softball Canada casebook.

Click to expand...

Just watched it. I saw one of the umpires discussing exactly what he saw and also there was a point where he said something along the lines of 'by rule the fence section being down in in play.' If the play was as described, the call was 100% correct.

The ball was dropped, landed fair on the fence and everyone was safe where they ended up. On the video the commentators were talking about how long it was taking to restart play, but for that sort of play where there is going to be rules explanation on something you don't see often and is different in several rule sets, I thought it was handled well and the coaches really didn't argue all that much once they got an explanation.

Overall the umpires did a number of things really right - even if you couldn't hear what was being said:

- First, I believe they all knew the rule. Not a surprise because a similar play has been playing in the highlights from previous years and so I am sure they had discussed this already among all the umpires.
- They never killed the play and let it run its course. Killing the play would be real tempting to do, but if the ball would have been dead by rule you can always put the runners where they need to be after the play is over so even if the umpire wasn't 100% of the rule or what to call, letting the ball be live is a good move
- Once it was over, they got together, the umpire who was had the play described what he saw and it was clear they were all discussing their understanding of the rule and that they were all on the same page before engaging the coaches
- They gave then gave their explanations to the managers - it was clear, concise and both coaches seemed good. You could see the coach was asking if the ball was dead and you could pretty much see the umpire say "No it was on the fence". There was some further discussion on were the runners where they needed to be, and then on it went.

Excellent summary. I agree that it was very well handled by the crew. They were calm, communicated well, got it right, and got the game going again. It could have been much uglier. However, sitting behind the dugout I can tell you that one coach was definitely not good with the call and neither were the players on that bench. There could have been a few ejections that game but the officials were doing everything they could to avoid it.
~start rant~
I have to say that through the two games I watched live Saturday the amount of unsportsmanlike behavior was troubling. Catchers and batters of all three teams I watched didn't think anything of turning and chewing out the PU during at bats. Every close play resulted in an argument and gestures of disbelief. I know stakes were high but we certainly wouldn't let our kids behave that way.
~end rant~
On the positive side there was some great fastball played and another tremendous job by the organizing committee in Kitchener-Waterloo.

marriard said:

Just watched it. I saw one of the umpires discussing exactly what he saw and also there was a point where he said something along the lines of 'by rule the fence section being down in in play.' If the play was as described, the call was 100% correct.

The ball was dropped, landed fair on the fence and everyone was safe where they ended up. On the video the commentators were talking about how long it was taking to restart play, but for that sort of play where there is going to be rules explanation on something you don't see often and is different in several rule sets, I thought it was handled well and the coaches really didn't argue all that much once they got an explanation.

Overall the umpires did a number of things really right - even if you couldn't hear what was being said:

- First, I believe they all knew the rule. Not a surprise because a similar play has been playing in the highlights from previous years and so I am sure they had discussed this already among all the umpires.
- They never killed the play and let it run its course. Killing the play would be real tempting to do, but if the ball would have been dead by rule you can always put the runners where they need to be after the play is over so even if the umpire wasn't 100% of the rule or what to call, letting the ball be live is a good move
- Once it was over, they got together, the umpire who was had the play described what he saw and it was clear they were all discussing their understanding of the rule and that they were all on the same page before engaging the coaches
- They gave then gave their explanations to the managers - it was clear, concise and both coaches seemed good. You could see the coach was asking if the ball was dead and you could pretty much see the umpire say "No it was on the fence". There was some further discussion on were the runners where they needed to be, and then on it went.

Click to expand...

Either it is a catch, a home run, a ground rule double or nothing. There is nothing in any rule book that would allow for a 1 base award on a batted ball that leaves the field of play, touched or not. The only way the runners could have ended up where they did was if all the rhetoric was ignored and it was never ruled a dead ball that never touched the ground outside the fence.

In normal softball, the explanation took way too long. Once they came to a decision, both managers should have been brought together and given the decision at the same time. End of story. If the managers don't use the P word, all discussion is over and the game continues. Unfortunately, this is men's fastpitch and these guys can be worse than idiot SP players. And the umpires are expected to take it .

Check the bat.

You are correct...Synergy Extended...not ASA legal anymore. But that's another issue

CoreSoftball20 said:

You are correct...Synergy Extended...not ASA legal anymore. But that's another issue

Click to expand...

ISC uses the WBSC bat list which does approve the Synergy Extended SCX3, SCX14 and SCX14B models.

That's fine, No idea what this mens fp actually went by...assumed it was one of the usual assoc. Didn't really feel like digging around