Home Book Rules?

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Jan 5, 2018
385
63
PNW
Two situations this last weekend. 12U USA Softball Tourn

First situation on Saturday. We are visitor. Runner on 3rd with two outs. Batter has 2 strikes. She asks the umpire for the count. He says 1 BALL 1 STRIKE, holds up his hands for everyone to see turns to both dugouts with his hands. I'm not going to argue if he has the count wrong.....but my batter did have 2 strikes (being completely honest). Batter swings and misses....it's an uncaught 3rd strike that goes to the backstop. Runner on 3 slides home safe. Batter stays at home. Umpire calls time after the score.

Home team explodes that it was strike three. We tell our batter to run to 1st she does and they throw ball to base ahead of her and field umpire calls her out.

Home team is irate because it was strike three. Ensuing discussions with umpires. Umpires call the batter out. My point/argument to the umpire was she asked you for the count...you gave her 1-1. If you'd given her the correct count she would have had the opportunity to respond correctly....but the opportunity was taken away by your action...and that's unfair to the batter. My argument was run should count and the batter now have 1-2. He consulted the home book who said the count was 0-2 at the start of the play. The field umpire did not have the count... Umpires talked....run counted, batter out. Inning over. Umpires told me, emphatically, that even if they are wrong...HOMEBOOK RULES...even over the umpire.

Does homebook rule over everything? What is the correct call in this situation? I'm trying to coach my girls what to do if this happens again.
(Good news we still won the game)

Fast forward to Sunday. We are home team and on defense. One out, runner on 1st. First pitch is swing and miss, Second pitch is a ball, third pitch is a foul out of play. Count would be 1-2. Umpire does not call out the count and pitcher delivers the fourth pitch that is a strike looking...Strike three. Visiting team goes nuts...says it's only 2 strikes. Umpire goes to visiting book and comes back and says the count is now 1-2. I call time and talk to Home Plate Blue....she says well "they have"....I remind her we are the home book. She talks to our official scorekeeper as well as our person using Game Changer...who both had the count as 1-2 and then the strike three looking. She talks with field ump...who didn't have the count...they decide that because there's confusion they'll go with a 1-2 count and batter is not out.

Same tournament...one umpire emphatically tells me home book rules...next day...umpire decides that she'll go with visiting book....because the visiting book didn't agree with the home book.

What's the right call?

And the girl ends up getting a hit and they eventually score the runner from 1st. Fortunately we won that game as well.

The conversations between myself and the umpires were very cordial and polite. The boisterous obnoxious ones were the opposing teams.
 
Jun 11, 2013
2,619
113
If I am doing home book I consider that I am part official at the game. If he says it's 1-1 and I show 2 strikes I would say something if possible. It would be the same if he said we scored 3 runs the inning before but I only show 2.

In the end the Home book is the one that counts assuming that it's right.
 
Oct 11, 2010
8,337
113
Chicago, IL
Like the assuming it is right. :)

I am not sure visiting book means anything, I do not care what it says.

Sometimes Home and Visiting will get together on batter, score and seldom outs but not the count.

IMO they are after the fact.

People can not be losing track of count on field, do not think it is scorekeepers responsibility. If it is we are in trouble.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
You had more problems then just an umpire losing the count. No run can score if the 3rd out of an inning is the result of a batter/runner not safely reaching 1st base. That is umpiring 101.

Yes, if there is a discrepancy between books that cannot be resolved then the home book is the official book.
 
Aug 10, 2016
686
63
Georgia
Our team was home and I was official book (using Game Changer).
Other team was batting and there was 1 out. Batter had a called strike, hit a foul, and third pitch was a called strike - batter out, right?
Same batter comes up, two balls and then a hit. She gets to first - and then the other team is questioning why there are 2 outs on the board.
They consult me and I said, the last girl struck out - I wasn't checking jerseys so didn't realize that the same girl had batted again.
Guess who they went with??? I don't get why there's an official book if you aren't going to actually go with it. Especially when the batter and first base coach knew she struck out :/
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
Two situations this last weekend. 12U USA Softball Tourn

First situation on Saturday. We are visitor. Runner on 3rd with two outs. Batter has 2 strikes. She asks the umpire for the count. He says 1 BALL 1 STRIKE, holds up his hands for everyone to see turns to both dugouts with his hands. I'm not going to argue if he has the count wrong.....but my batter did have 2 strikes (being completely honest). Batter swings and misses....it's an uncaught 3rd strike that goes to the backstop. Runner on 3 slides home safe. Batter stays at home. Umpire calls time after the score.

Home team explodes that it was strike three. We tell our batter to run to 1st she does and they throw ball to base ahead of her and field umpire calls her out.

Home team is irate because it was strike three. Ensuing discussions with umpires. Umpires call the batter out. My point/argument to the umpire was she asked you for the count...you gave her 1-1. If you'd given her the correct count she would have had the opportunity to respond correctly....but the opportunity was taken away by your action...and that's unfair to the batter. My argument was run should count and the batter now have 1-2. He consulted the home book who said the count was 0-2 at the start of the play. The field umpire did not have the count... Umpires talked....run counted, batter out. Inning over. Umpires told me, emphatically, that even if they are wrong...HOMEBOOK RULES...even over the umpire.

So you had no problem with the wrong count until it was not falling in your favor?
Does homebook rule over everything? What is the correct call in this situation? I'm trying to coach my girls what to do if this happens again.
(Good news we still won the game)

Fast forward to Sunday. We are home team and on defense. One out, runner on 1st. First pitch is swing and miss, Second pitch is a ball, third pitch is a foul out of play. Count would be 1-2. Umpire does not call out the count and pitcher delivers the fourth pitch that is a strike looking...Strike three. Visiting team goes nuts...says it's only 2 strikes. Umpire goes to visiting book and comes back and says the count is now 1-2. I call time and talk to Home Plate Blue....she says well "they have"....I remind her we are the home book. She talks to our official scorekeeper as well as our person using Game Changer...who both had the count as 1-2 and then the strike three looking. She talks with field ump...who didn't have the count...they decide that because there's confusion they'll go with a 1-2 count and batter is not out.

Same tournament...one umpire emphatically tells me home book rules...next day...umpire decides that she'll go with visiting book....because the visiting book didn't agree with the home book.

What's the right call?

And the girl ends up getting a hit and they eventually score the runner from 1st. Fortunately we won that game as well.

The conversations between myself and the umpires were very cordial and polite. The boisterous obnoxious ones were the opposing teams.

Any conflict should be addressed immediately. It benefits both teams when improper info is corrected when realized.

The "home book" is usually a default. Don't believe there is a rule stating it as "official"
 
Mar 14, 2017
453
43
Michigan
So you had no problem with the wrong count until it was not falling in your favor?


Any conflict should be addressed immediately. It benefits both teams when improper info is corrected when realized.

The "home book" is usually a default. Don't believe there is a rule stating it as "official"

I've had a very good umpire tell me the home book is the official book, but I've never seen that in writing.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
I've had a very good umpire tell me the home book is the official book, but I've never seen that in writing.

Rules are written for Championship play. If there is no official scorekeeper, the TD should designate an official book. Anything else needs a local application.
 
Mar 14, 2017
453
43
Michigan
Rules are written for Championship play. If there is no official scorekeeper, the TD should designate an official book. Anything else needs a local application.

That was when I was a student & was keeping the book in a HS game.

It came about when the coach forgot the umpires checks & sent me to pick them up between games of a double header. I turned in the line up to the visitor and went to get the checks. The coach changed the line up, but didn't turn in the new card to the visitor. The game started before I got back with the checks, so when I got there I told the our coach that I had already given the other line up to the visitors.

He asked if I gave one to the umpires & I told him no. I quickly wrote up the line-up card with the current batting order & turned it in.

In the 5th inning their scorekeeper realized the batter was different & they appealed. The umpire said, "This is the line up I have." The scorekeeper showed them the original line up card I turned in & the umpire said, "The home book is the official book & it matches the official line-up card that was turned in, so the line up is correct."

The visiting coach who was a hot head & already felt like the umps were screwing him since the beginning of game one was rightfully pissed. To be fair, his team was completely overmatched. Our pitcher went on to pitch D2 & his team was good, but they couldn't hit her. They were losing 9-0 at the time & we had a runner on 3rd, so he told the catcher to throw the next pitch into the outfield & end the game.
 
Jan 5, 2018
385
63
PNW
MTR THANKS for your reply.

My OP was three questions
1)Does Homebook rule over everything
2) what is the correct call in our situation (thank you COMP...agree more problems than umpire losing count)
3) How to coach girls if future situation like this occurs-what is a batter to do when they ask for the count...and then get rung up because the umpire told her incorrectly?

And out of our Saturday experience was according to umps HOMEBOOK RULES. So we move to Sunday and then....ump has the count wrong...and HOMEBOOK doesn't rule....


So you had no problem with the wrong count until it was not falling in your favor?

I didn't really have a problem either way. Player had one foot in box, asks counts, ump give it to her, she puts other foot in box and he says play. It happened pretty quick...and truthfully I'm standing there thinking...that's wrong. BUT if he's going to only give her 1 strike instead of 2...why would I argue it when it would be NOT in her favor? If I was the defensive team, I'd immediately have called time to get the count correct.

It actually worked out in our favor...incorrectly...but in our favor... as we were awarded the run. My issue was that when a player asks the Ump for the count....and the umpire is wrong.....what is the player supposed to do? The difference of strike 1 or strike 2 on a uncaught strike is a big difference.

I agree conflicts should be resolved immediately. AND the tournament rules said Homebook was the official book....but still the question remains does it overrule the umpire on a balls/strike count?
 

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