Orange Bag question on Saturday

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Oct 7, 2015
72
8
USSSA rules.

On Saturday our catcher dropped the third strike on the first batter of the game. She picked it up and threw it to first base and the ball beat the runner by 6 steps. After the runner runs through the bag the umpire at first calls her safe. So I call time out and go ask about it and he says she's safe because our first baseman used the orange bag and the orange bag is for the runner.

I'm like 99.9% sure that's wrong so I tell him I don't think that's the rule and would he please consult with the home plate umpire on the rule. I really wanted to yell "Are you f..ing kidding me?" He says he doesn't need to consult and that he knows the rules and she's out. So as I'm walking away I look to the home plate ump asking if he will talk to him and he says not unless the base ump initiates the discussion.

1. Am I correct in understanding that the first baseman can use either side she wants as long as she's not blocking the entire base (both sides)?

2. Does that seem normal the the home plate umpire wouldn't try to give his two cents if he believed the base ump to be wrong?

It was a bad start to the game and then they ended up scoring 4 runs in top half of the inning. Not saying they wouldn't have if that girl would have been out but it did piss everyone off and put our team in a foul mood to begin the game.

Saw the same ump on Sunday and he tells me he went and re-read the rules and he was right and I was wrong. I almost lost it again.
 
Aug 29, 2011
2,581
83
NorCal
It's covered in section 19. Ump "may be right" you "may be right" depending on the situation.

Sec 19. Double First Base
The Double First Base shall consist of a base in fair territory that is white in
color and a base in foul territory that is colored.
A. A batted ball hitting or bounding over any part of the white portion is
declared fair. A batted ball hitting or bounding over only the colored
portion is declared foul.
B. Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use
the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion.
1. If the batter-runner touches only the white portion when there is a
play being made at first base, it is treated the same as missing the
base. The batter-runner is out providing the defense appeals prior to
the batter-runner returning to first base. Once the runner returns to the
white or colored portion, no appeal can be made.
2. If the defense touches only the colored portion, it is treated the same
as being off the base.
Exceptions: The defense and batter runner can use either portion when:
1. The ball is thrown from the foul side of first base line.
2. on any force out attempt from the foul side of first base.
3. on any fair batted ball or errant throw that pulls the defense to foul
territory.

C. If there is a force play by an infielder on the batter-runner, who touches
only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown
ball while on the white, Interference is ruled.
Penalty: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out, and all other runners are
returned to the base last occupied at the time of interference.
D. When no play is being attempted at first base, the batter-runner may touch
the white or colored base.
E. After the batter-runner initially reaches first base, the runner and any
fielder may use the white or colored base. This shall include but is not
limited to:
1. The runner returning to first base.
2. The runner tagging up on a fly ball.
3. The fielder making a play on a returning runner.
 
Oct 11, 2010
8,337
113
Chicago, IL
If the ball is coming from foul of the right side of the field fielder can use the safety bag and the batter the white bag, which sounds like what happened.

Sometimes umps think you are showing them up but yes they will usually ask.
 
Oct 7, 2015
72
8
It's covered in section 19. Ump "may be right" you "may be right" depending on the situation.


2. If the defense touches only the colored portion, it is treated the same
as being off the base.
Exceptions: The defense and batter runner can use either portion when:
1. The ball is thrown from the foul side of first base line.
2. on any force out attempt from the foul side of first base.
3. on any fair batted ball or errant throw that pulls the defense to foul
territory.


Thanks for finding these rules. So now I'm replaying the play in my head. The ball hit the catchers mitt and pretty much just dropped right at her feet. She must've been in foul territory but sort of right on the first base line.

Assuming he thought she was on the fair side of first base line then exception 2 would not apply. However even in that case since the ball was thrown to that side it seems exception 3 would apply. Ump still wrong! :) (small petty victory but I like it)
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
1. Am I correct in understanding that the first baseman can use either side she wants as long as she's not blocking the entire base (both sides)?

You are not. Same for all rule sets using the double base.


2. Does that seem normal the the home plate umpire wouldn't try to give his two cents if he believed the base ump to be wrong?

Not only is it normal, it is the mechanic. No umpire is ever to offer his/her opinion/input concerning another umpires call without being requested.


Saw the same ump on Sunday and he tells me he went and re-read the rules and he was right and I was wrong. I almost lost it again.

Not a smart move on the umpire's part, but the question could also be why didn't you check the rules?
 
Last edited:
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
It's too bad that we still don't know for sure if the umpire doesn't know/understand the rule, since it seems he did make the wrong call, or if it's just a matter of a bad (maybe, who knows) judgment call, which ultimately is no big deal since everybody misses a call from time to time.
 
Oct 7, 2015
72
8
You are not. Same for all rule sets using the double base.




Not only is it normal, it is the mechanic. No umpire is ever to offer his/her opinion/input concerning another umpires call without being requested.




Not a smart move on the umpire's part, but the question could also be why didn't you check the rules?


Thanks. I didn't check the rule Saturday night because by the time I got home it was late. I was tired and wasn't really thinking about the call at the time. When I did post this I think I made the mistake of thinking because USA Softball rules are not posted online that I couldn't easily find the USSSA rules online either. Besides I like posting stuff on here and having a discussion about the items so if I just looked it up online it wouldn't be as fun. :)
 
Oct 7, 2015
72
8
It's too bad that we still don't know for sure if the umpire doesn't know/understand the rule, since it seems he did make the wrong call, or if it's just a matter of a bad (maybe, who knows) judgment call, which ultimately is no big deal since everybody misses a call from time to time.

Unfortunately I think he just doesn't understand the rule. Because even if he judged the ball to be on the fair side of the 1st base line the throw was to the right side of the bag and exception 3 would've covered that.
 

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