Failed to touch HP

corlay · Aug 1, 2017

this has made me think.

how about these scenarios:
Tag play at HP.
Runner head first slide, to foul territory side if HP, and reaches with left hand to touch HP, but misses as she slides by.

scenario 1:
catcher receives ball, and ball comes loose when she applies tag.
Ump calls "hesitated safe" even if he observed the runner missing HP?

scenario 2:
ball tips off catcher's glove receiving a throw, and rolls to backstop.
Umps calls "immediate safe" even if he observed the runner missing HP?

Comp · Aug 1, 2017

Scenario 1, correct, make a safe call.

Scenario 2, the general rule of thumb about making a call is it requires the ball to be involved. There is a saying used at least locally in our umpire clinics, "no ball no call".

MTR · Aug 1, 2017

CPEM said:
This is too vague. Was it a force play or a tag play? If it was a force play, did she cross the plate well before the ball reached the fielder? If it was a tag play, was the runner ever tagged?

Irrelevant to the appeal.

MTR · Aug 1, 2017

corlay said:
thanks for the clarification Comp!

it was indeed a tag play.
catcher bobbled throw and "tagged" runner without possession of ball.
Runner never touched HP. and assuming she scored, simply returned to the dugout.
Then the appeal.

If that is the timeline, if the umpire was aware what was going on (and should have been if the DC was yelling to the pitcher), s/he should have called time and accepted a dead ball appeal from the pitcher, catcher or infielder. NOT from the coach (if USA Softball)

MTR · Aug 1, 2017

corlay said:
this has made me think.

how about these scenarios:
Tag play at HP.
Runner head first slide, to foul territory side if HP, and reaches with left hand to touch HP, but misses as she slides by.

scenario 1:
catcher receives ball, and ball comes loose when she applies tag.
Ump calls "hesitated safe" even if he observed the runner missing HP?

WTF is "hesitated safe"?

I assume you mean the umpire called & signaled safe after a hesitation. The catcher must have possession of the ball while tagging the runner for the appeal. But if the catcher was still in the process of engaging the runner, the umpire should not have made a call on the missed plate.

scenario 2:
ball tips off catcher's glove receiving a throw, and rolls to backstop.
Umps calls "immediate safe" even if he observed the runner missing HP?

Again I assume the umpire did not give a description of the "safe" ruling. Since there was no immediate play to be made as the ball was away from the area of the plate, the safe call was correct.

Ajaywill · Aug 1, 2017

Comp said:
A tag play was missed and regardless of it was home plate, 3rd base or in between 2 bases deserves a call. If the SS tries to tag a runner between 2nd and 3rd, misses and is chasing after the runner the umpire is not suppose to wait until after the SS has either tagged or gives up on chasing the runner. A play was made and needs to be called either safe or out. Yes, the umpire manual does suggest on missed tags at the plate the umpire should hesitate slightly before making a call, but that does not mean wait until all play has ceased or the catcher is no longer playing on the runner. Nothing in the umpire manual suggests waiting until fielder is no longer making a play. It means exactly what it says, hesitate slightly before making the call and that hesitation is completely the judgement of the umpire.

To add a bit to this.....The hesitation is to make sure that neither player (runner or fielder) is going to attempt to complete the play. If the runner shows no intention of moving to touch the plate and the catcher does not attempt to tag the runner, then the umpire makes the "safe" signal. As has been stated, the runner is still subject to appeal.

CPEM · Aug 7, 2017

MTR said:
Irrelevant to the appeal.

Correct, but that wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to this part of the question, which I probably should have referenced better:

corlay said:
My question: What is the duty of the HP umpire on a play at the plate? Is he/she required to verify HP is touched by the Runner?
I sure thought so, but given the events described above, I'm not so sure.

My interpretation of the OP's request was not about the proper process in the appeal, but the proper mechanics of the umpire as the "play" is in progress. I think that has been adequately answered in previous posts.

mmeece · Aug 9, 2017

I don't know if it has since changed, but when I umpired baseball years ago (yes, I realize baseball is not softball) the correct mechanic was no call when a base is not touched and no tag/force is made. This alerts both teams (not just defense) that the play is not yet complete. If no appeal/further play is made prior to the next play then the runner is deemed safe. I guess I don't understand why the safe call is made if the runner did not touch the plate and is not truly "safe"

MTR · Aug 9, 2017

mmeece said:
I don't know if it has since changed, but when I umpired baseball years ago (yes, I realize baseball is not softball) the correct mechanic was no call when a base is not touched and no tag/force is made. This alerts both teams (not just defense) that the play is not yet complete. If no appeal/further play is made prior to the next play then the runner is deemed safe. I guess I don't understand why the safe call is made if the runner did not touch the plate and is not truly "safe"

You are correct, softball is not baseball. The correct mechanic is as noted. The umpire is to hesitate to see if either is continuing with the play. Lacking that, the umpire is to call the runner safe since s/he has satisfied the rules. That runner is still subject to a live or dead ball appeal.

Failed to touch HP

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