illegal pitch story and question

chinamigarden said:

11 College National Championships player and coach. 4 national championships as a player with Raybestos, multiple hall of fames... I think she is still someone I would listen to. Would you listen to Coach Hutch at U of M? Same age, just one retired and one still coaches.

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I guess you were nodding in agreement and hanging on every stupid comment Michelle Smith made during the WCWS? Just because someone was accomplished in ones career back in the day does not necessarily equate to any level of credibility.

smddad said:

Your argument falls under logical fallacy and provides no data that shows advantage.

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And where is your data showing leaping isn't an advantage?

smddad said:

There may be some weight to the argument of increased front side resistance. However, in my original post is mentioned proper foot drag. Optimally, we would to have as light a drag as possible the decrease drag and increase distance on their stride.
I have taken leaders, to help them realize they can stride as far or further by dragging, and marked both their leaps and their drags. I haven't found on who gets out further by leaping.
As for your data that shows pitchers slower when dragging, part of that is due to a change in mechanics. We'd most likely see the same if took a legal pitcher and asked her to leap. I would not, however, suggest doing that for obvious reasons.
I don't think anyone purposely teaches a pitcher to leap. The bad habit happens and it's extremely difficult to fix it with some kids. Then we get to deal with parents and their, "they don't ever get called, so it's fine" attitude. I'm not advocating leaping. Just in all my years coaching, I stopped worrying about it years ago. And then I really didn't see an advantage in it. I also refuse to let the girls on my teams use it as an excuse for losing when that happens. In a perfect world, they'd follow the rules. In the case of the leaping rule, I will never see the advantage. As for crow-hopping...that's another story.

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The fact that the pivot foot is experiencing resistance when is in and of itself evidence that not having the foot down is more efficient. Granted the extent of the difference in many case may be negligible.

I used legal, elite level pitchers (my students) who I then asked to drive as hard as possible and not worry about keeping their foot down. Leaping is most often caused by bad mechanics, not by design. Under the current rules with little to no enforcement I would agree that often there is no advantage. Many of these leaping pitchers are not exactly top performers.

The real question is what happens if leaping were sanctioned and pitchers with solid mechanics began to leap by design? Which is why changing the rules to sanction leaping would have significant unintended consequences. The current leapers would continue on as before secure in the knowledge that they need not fix their poor mechanics. But those with superior would soon increase their performance through an explosive, unconstrained leg drive. I know for my DD it would be the difference between working in the high 60's to the low 70's.

BTW - I have also experimented with East-West pitchers and elimination of the pitching lane (Taryne Mowat) rule with similar results. From the perspective of a PC, please change the rules as pitchers will dominate like never before. Just don't say I didn't warn ya!

chinamigarden said:

Sorry but if Sue Enquist can call it the mound, its the mound.

I never saw a parent stand up at one of her talks and say, Coach Enquist its not a mound. I would love to see it though, I am sure it would be epic.

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Sorry-it just drives me crazy. Like when someone says VIN number...

riseball said:

I guess you were nodding in agreement and hanging on every stupid comment Michelle Smith made during the WCWS? Just because someone was accomplished in ones career back in the day does not necessarily equate to any level of credibility.

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So what you are saying is that your level of accomplishment is worthy of listening to, but Coach Enquist's is suspect.

Your hubris has reached a new level.

chinamigarden said:

So what you are saying is that your level of accomplishment is worthy of listening to, but Coach Enquist's is suspect...

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No, not at all. My point is that her many accomplishments do not make everything she says infallible. Michelle Smith was a great pitcher and a softball icon, but clearly has no idea what she is talking about. Enquist coached back in the day and is now a motivational speaker. Just because she calls it a mound does not mean it is not a dumb comment. What is especially irritating is when she pops off about recruiting ethics and the verballing 12 year olds. Kind of like Bobby Knight talking about anger management.

chinamigarden said:

Baseball at the age of around 13 when they start to call balks is brutal. Balks are called all the time. I saw more balks called in one year of travel baseball then I saw IPs called in 10+ years of fastpitch softball. By the time the boys are 15 balks are never called, because the pitchers don't balk anymore. If softball followed baseball's lead on this, 12u would be brutal on pitchers. But you wouldn't see constant IPs in 14u and older.

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You are comparing apples to oranges. Very few, if any, baseball pitchers are being called for a balk WITHOUT baserunners on (i.e. they are called for a balk because baserunners are leading off and pitchers attempt throws to the base to pick them off). They are not being called for balks because they are not pushing off the rubber correctly. My point is baseball has very simple rules when it involves throwing the pitch to home plate. If they allowed "leap and drag" mechanics during baseball pitching you would see the same problems in baseball as you do in fastpitch. IMO, there is a whole host of issues that occur when requiring a pitcher to drag the foot along the ground like an anchor. Eliminate that one requirement and you eliminate the need to tell your umpires not to call IPs and puts all pitchers on an equal playing field. The current system is a complete joke and is a huge black eye on the game. Some say allowing leaping will make the game become irrelavent like the men's game but I think what is going on currently is far worse for the game and will come to a head soon....

Rocketech1 said:

.. Very few, if any, baseball pitchers are being called for a balk WITHOUT baserunners on (i.e. they are called for a balk because baserunners are leading off and pitchers attempt throws to the base to pick them off)...My point is baseball has very simple rules when it involves throwing the pitch to home plate...

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Well done!

Rocketech1 said:

You are comparing apples to oranges. Very few, if any, baseball pitchers are being called for a balk WITHOUT baserunners on (i.e. they are called for a balk because baserunners are leading off and pitchers attempt throws to the base to pick them off). They are not being called for balks because they are not pushing off the rubber correctly. My point is baseball has very simple rules when it involves throwing the pitch to home plate. If they allowed "leap and drag" mechanics during baseball pitching you would see the same problems in baseball as you do in fastpitch. IMO, there is a whole host of issues that occur when requiring a pitcher to drag the foot along the ground like an anchor. Eliminate that one requirement and you eliminate the need to tell your umpires not to call IPs and puts all pitchers on an equal playing field. The current system is a complete joke and is a huge black eye on the game. Some say allowing leaping will make the game become irrelavent like the men's game but I think what is going on currently is far worse for the game and will come to a head soon....

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My point being, call the IP rule the way it is written and by 14u IPs will disappear because the pitchers will be trained properly to follow the rules.

As for the number of rules I think there are something along the lines of 15 ways you can balk in baseball, including catchers balks. Baseball also has IPs which result in a ball on the batter.