Courtesy Runner -- Team out of subs and still uses one.

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Nov 29, 2009
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Strict ASA tournament rules. No local rules apply.

A team has used their entire lineup. No subs available. Catcher reaches base. Coach calls time and asks for a courtesy runner. Umpire fails to realize the team has no eligible runners left and grants them the runner. Defensive team throws one pitch. Defensive coach calls time and addresses the courtesy runner issue with the HP umpire.

Is the runner called out and removed from the base for being an improper player? Or is there no penalty and the catcher is placed back on the bases? Normally I will bring it to the attention of the HP umpire before the change is made. Trying to figure out if it would be better to wait and then question it once the CR is official and possibly get an out and a runner removed from the basepath.

I've never run across this but the thought occurred to me as to how to handle it if it ever does. Are there any penalties for an offensive team lineup error or not? It seems to me it would be a way to get an extra courtesy runner if a coach were so inclined.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
Strict ASA tournament rules. No local rules apply.

A team has used their entire lineup. No subs available. Catcher reaches base. Coach calls time and asks for a courtesy runner. Umpire fails to realize the team has no eligible runners left and grants them the runner. Defensive team throws one pitch. Defensive coach calls time and addresses the courtesy runner issue with the HP umpire.

Is the runner called out and removed from the base for being an improper player? Or is there no penalty and the catcher is placed back on the bases? Normally I will bring it to the attention of the HP umpire before the change is made. Trying to figure out if it would be better to wait and then question it once the CR is official and possibly get an out and a runner removed from the basepath.

I've never run across this but the thought occurred to me as to how to handle it if it ever does. Are there any penalties for an offensive team lineup error or not? It seems to me it would be a way to get an extra courtesy runner if a coach were so inclined.

The player (illegal runner) should be DQ'd & the original runner placed on the base. ASA/USA 4.6.F.3
 
Nov 29, 2009
2,975
83
The player (illegal runner) should be DQ'd & the original runner placed on the base. ASA/USA 4.6.F.3

So there is no penalty if a coach tries to use an illegal CR and gets caught. The only thing that happens is the CR gets pulled off of the bases and the original runner is then placed on the bases.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
So there is no penalty if a coach tries to use an illegal CR and gets caught. The only thing that happens is the CR gets pulled off of the bases and the original runner is then placed on the bases.

No, the team loses that player for the remainder of the game and is charged with an out every time the DQ'd player is due to bat (based on OP)

Then again, the umpire screwed this up by not doing his/her job. IOW, it never should happen.
 
Aug 10, 2016
686
63
Georgia
DD's team had a dispute over CR last night but it was a completely legal sub. Had a CR put in for our pitcher. Nothing disputed when she first got placed.
They pitched a ball.
CR steals 2nd. There's an overthrow to 2nd, she steals 3rd, bad throw to 3rd, and she steals home. Now the coach disputes the sub. It was perfectly legal but if she hadn't stolen around, would he have even cared?

At what point do you need to dispute for it to matter - like in football where you can't challenge after the next play has happened..
 
Mar 26, 2013
1,934
0
No, the team loses that player for the remainder of the game and is charged with an out every time the DQ'd player is due to bat (based on OP)
I agree if the DQ'd player was in the batting order at the time and there isn't another player eligible to bat in that spot, however neither of those conditions is known from the OP.

It's also possible the team will have to play defense shorthanded.
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
I agree if the DQ'd player was in the batting order at the time and there isn't another player eligible to bat in that spot, however neither of those conditions is known from the OP.

It's also possible the team will have to play defense shorthanded.

The only way to avoid playing shorthanded is if the DQd player was the DP or the Flex.
 
Nov 29, 2009
2,975
83
No, the team loses that player for the remainder of the game and is charged with an out every time the DQ'd player is due to bat (based on OP)

Then again, the umpire screwed this up by not doing his/her job. IOW, it never should happen.

That is what I wasn't sure of. DQ'd means removed from the game. Now I know.

Could the HPU unwind it saying they missed the missed the changes on their lineup card so as not to disadvantage either team? Or is it locked in once the next pitch is thrown?

Again, this all hypothetical. Just for my own information if it ever came up in a game.

Thanks
 
Mar 26, 2013
1,934
0
The only way to avoid playing shorthanded is if the DQd player was the DP or the Flex.
I see 2 more possibilities - 1) DQ'd player wasn't in the game (i.e. previously subbed out); 2) another player is eligible to reenter in her spot. OP only said "A team has used their entire lineup. No subs available."
 

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
I see 2 more possibilities - 1) DQ'd player wasn't in the game (i.e. previously subbed out); 2) another player is eligible to reenter in her spot. OP only said "A team has used their entire lineup. No subs available."

That it did and was the reference to which I was responding. "no subs" means no subs and that would include a player with a reentry available (see USA definitions of Substitute)
 

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