Somewhat Different Collision at Home Plate

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Jul 26, 2016
2
0
10u, ASA tournament
Our team is in the field.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. Pitcher throws wild pitch and it gets behind the catcher. Pitcher comes in to cover home as she’s supposed to. She’s standing on the first base side of home plate, with one foot just barely touching the plate. Our catcher is unable to get to the ball before the runner at 3rd reaches the plate. The runner plows over our pitcher, fairly aggressively. The runner from second rounds third and holds, waiting to see what happens. The pitcher is injured on the collision. The home plate umpire is leaning over the pitcher and calls time. The runner from third starts to go back to third, but then turns and runs home and quickly into the dugout.

Once the pitcher is removed from the field, the umpire calls both runs safe. Our assistant coach is angry and arguing the call. He was stating that the runner had to slide when there was a play at the plate. Ruling provided was that the runner had the right to the plate and since the pitcher didn’t have the ball, there was nothing he could do about the collision. When pressed about the second run scoring after time had been called, the ruling was that the runner scored before time had been called.

Here was my interpretation of the play: Since the pitcher did not have the ball, this negated the rule about sliding when there is a play at the plate. In my opinion, the collision was unnecessary and flagrant and the runner should have been ejected from the game, but the run should stand. The second run should not have counted since it was scored after the time was called. Both scorekeepers agreed that time was called before the second girl scored.

I am a fairly new scorekeeper and want to make sure I am not missing something. Our assistant coach thinks I am way off base on this one.
 
Oct 30, 2014
292
18
Seattle
I would need to see it to decide if it was "flagrant" but as far as the second run I think the umpire was in the wrong, time shouldn't have been called until the play was over.
 
Mar 13, 2010
960
0
Columbus, Ohio
There is no rule that requires a runner to slide, ever, in any circumstance, play or no play, at any base.

Since the pitcher didn't have the ball, the runner did have the right of way. You'd really need to see the play to determine if it was "flagrant" or not. If all the runner did was run directly across the base, it's probably not flagrant. If she altered her path to initiate contact, lowerd a shoulder, threw an elbow, etc., probably flagrant.

No advance of any runner should be allowed once time is called.
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
Here was my interpretation of the play: Since the pitcher did not have the ball, this negated the rule about sliding when there is a play at the plate. In my opinion, the collision was unnecessary and flagrant and the runner should have been ejected from the game, but the run should stand. The second run should not have counted since it was scored after the time was called. Both scorekeepers agreed that time was called before the second girl scored.

I am a fairly new scorekeeper and want to make sure I am not missing something. Our assistant coach thinks I am way off base on this one.

There is no rule about sliding. You never have to slide. Get it out of your mind now. However you are meant to avoid a collision if at all possible and you are not allowed to intentionally run over a fielder. Have to be there to make a call on whether the contact was avoidable or initiated by the base runner (there are absolutely still coaches out there who tell their kids to run over fielders or have their fielders intentionally block a base without the ball)

The run will score in ASA even if the runner is ejected. If ejected in a U-trip game, the run doesn't score as they have a malicious contact rule (11.2.W) so sanctioning body rule book is important.

Second runner would not score under the circumstances you describe. Once time is called, runners return to the last base. I am sure there was a whole lot of confusion and yelling coaches/spectators/etc at the time. But it sounds like they got it wrong - see below in why they probably didn't get it right.

This is going to sound somewhat petty, but I am going to tell you now that your AC pretty much lost you any chance of any reversal of any call the moment he started on about sliding especially if he was angry (he is also is the wrong person to be 'arguing' - it should be your HC having a calm discussion with the umpire). Right or wrong, the moment the umpire heard 'you must slide' coming out of the coaches mouth, they also thought 'this guy knows nothing about the rules' and probably stopped really listening to him at that exact moment.

Anytime your team wants to discuss a call with an umpire it is important that it is done by the head coach in a calm, respectful manner - it goes a long way in having any umpire listen and communicate what he saw and what he decides next. It helps calm everything down as well. Yes, emotions are running high - your head coach HAS to have a handle on this.

With all the yelling and without any calm discussion, I get the feeling that the second runner situation was not really even discussed or considered by the umpires. It is not excusing them for getting it wrong, however it is hard to be thinking through what happened when someone is in your face screaming about things especially if they are not listening and even more so if they are clearly wrong. They need to calm things down as well if possible and then go and discuss. As a coach, it really, really helps if you go out and discuss calmly the first situation, and then it is easy to move onto the second situation you also want to discuss.
 
Last edited:
Apr 3, 2013
54
6
I see the "you never have to slide" argument being brought up, which I don't disagree with, but I am seeing more and more umps from differing organizations telling the girls they do have to slide or they will call them out on a play at the base or plate every time. Even giving the first time they don't as a warning to the team and coach and anytime afterward's automatically calling the runner out even if the tag wasn't even close. Happened at a USSSA event last month. Maybe this is some small sect of umps doing this but have seen it a lot in 3 different states this year. To the point that a lot of coaches and parents do believe that this is an actual rule AND umps are enforcing it as a rule on state level tournaments.


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Jun 22, 2008
3,731
113
I see the "you never have to slide" argument being brought up, which I don't disagree with, but I am seeing more and more umps from differing organizations telling the girls they do have to slide or they will call them out on a play at the base or plate every time. Even giving the first time they don't as a warning to the team and coach and anytime afterward's automatically calling the runner out even if the tag wasn't even close. Happened at a USSSA event last month. Maybe this is some small sect of umps doing this but have seen it a lot in 3 different states this year. To the point that a lot of coaches and parents do believe that this is an actual rule AND umps are enforcing it as a rule on state level tournaments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And if they do you should lodge an immediate protest. There is no rule requiring a runner to slide, ever.
 
Jul 17, 2016
81
6
I think people confuse "crashing" with a requirement to slide. The ASA rule on crashing is in effect when the defender has or is actively receiving the ball for the tag, and the runner, still on their feet, runs into the defender instead of sliding, going around, or jumping to avoid the tag.

Depending on where the ball was and where the pitcher was, the first runner might have even been given an obstruction call, unless the pitcher was actually receiving the ball when contract occurred.

At least that's how I understand things. If time was called, though, I have no idea why three last run scored.

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marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
I see the "you never have to slide" argument being brought up, which I don't disagree with, but I am seeing more and more umps from differing organizations telling the girls they do have to slide or they will call them out on a play at the base or plate every time. Even giving the first time they don't as a warning to the team and coach and anytime afterward's automatically calling the runner out even if the tag wasn't even close. Happened at a USSSA event last month. Maybe this is some small sect of umps doing this but have seen it a lot in 3 different states this year. To the point that a lot of coaches and parents do believe that this is an actual rule AND umps are enforcing it as a rule on state level tournaments.

UIC/Tournament Director would be at our field before the game proceeded if an umpire tried to pull this on our team. I have never lodged a protest, but I am prepared to for something like this.

I guess we are lucky - I have not seen any travel umpire make this wrong call at all in our state over the past few years.

A slide is a great way to avoid the collision - so players SHOULD slide when appropriate. But it is absolutely not required.
 
Apr 3, 2013
54
6
And if they do you should lodge an immediate protest. There is no rule requiring a runner to slide, ever.

I agree. But I know an opposing team that did that against us and lost the protest. But that was at a smaller local event.

At a bigger regional tourney it happened but I did not see it as it was 2 different teams playing at same time as us. But heard the issue might have been avoiding the collision as much as the slide but both teams said the UIC made the case that if she had slid there would not have been a collision therefore the result would have been different.

Again, it's been mainly local and smaller regional tournaments but have personally seen umps from 3 different states tell players they had to get down. It just hasn't been an issue after a warning for us the last year except that one time. But 3 different times against us it has come up.

ETA. I should clarify, that I am talking close bang bang plays at the plate mostly. Obviously, they are not saying they have to slide if they beat the throw and no tag could have been applied before touching the plate or base.


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Last edited:

MTR

Jun 22, 2008
3,438
48
The only way, and it is possible this was the ruling, that the last run scores is if the umpire suspended play due to the injury to the player and judged that the runner would have scored had play not been suspended

ASA 10.4.G & RS#29
 

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