Appealing judgement calls

Mr T · Apr 25, 2016

14U A tournament Sunday final game. No one on, 1 out, pretty basic play, infielder fumbles the ball, fast runner, call is safe and looks correct. Correct enough that no one groans or anything, or even seems to debate. No comments from stands, runner safe by probably half a step.

No one on, ump is in perfect position. Defensive coach comes out and asks if home plate saw it differently. Umps powwow and end up calling batter runner out. Seemed strange, the guy was 7' away or whatever, overruled by home plate 60'+ away and from isn't a good angle for call at first, right?. Didn't even know coach could ask for that call. Could see maybe if base ump was on left side of field, maybe offensive coach asks for appeal like first base foot off bag.

What say the rules?

Comp · Apr 25, 2016

Did defensive coach come out and talk to plate umpire or base umpire? Umpire who did not make the call should not be discussing it with the coach. Coach should have gone to calling umpire with his question on the call, and then and only then if the calling umpire felt he missed something should the umpires get together and discuss the call between them.

And, no umpire ever has the authority to overrule the call of another umpire.

djcarter1966 · Apr 25, 2016

Hey if it is a judgement call and the umps huddle together (in other words the calling ump is asking for help) and make a call just....

Momo'sDad · Apr 25, 2016

On the play you described, the rule of thumb I was given was that, if the base ump agrees to ask the plate ump for help, then the only questions are whether the 1B was pulled off the bag or whether there was a tag/no tag on the runner.

I'm assuming, of course, that the coach requested and was given a time out to ask the base ump whether he'd be willing to ask the plate ump for help on the call.

Ajaywill · Apr 26, 2016

Unfortunately, too many coaches these days think they are at Costco and want to "shop" for calls.....

Don't like that out call at first base?....Go ask the umpire to talk to his partner to see if partner saw the play differently. This is questioning an umpires judgement call and coach shouldn't even be out there on the field. But, too many umpires will go to their partner just to appease a coach that some coaches get upset if an umpire refuses to go to his partner whenever the coach asks.

That well know coach phrase "We just want to get the call right" actually translates to "We want the call in our favor"

This is different that going to the umpire with a specific question on a portion of the play they may have missed or couldn't see...Did the fielder pull her foot off the bag? Did the fielder bobble the ball? Those are legitimate questions to ask an umpire to consult with their partner on.

BretMan · Apr 26, 2016

Coach: "We just want to get the call right".

Umpire: "We already did...'.

This whole "can you ask for help" thing seems to be getting out of hand. Two of the biggest blow ups I had last year were because I refused to get help (ie: appease the coach). One put out at first base with no issues of my view getting blocked, pulled foot, swipe tag, bobbled ball, etc. The other was a steal of second base (with the plate umpire being 85 feet away).

Both coaches were just fishing for a second opinion because the call didn't go their way. This is exactly when the umpire should NOT check with his partner! If you saw the play clearly and made your best judgment, then you are doing the job you're paid to do.

If you huddle up with your partner- and waste game time- just to "appease" the coach, then you are inviting them to come out and question EVERY close call that doesn't go their way. You might be in for a long afternoon!

Just to be clear...if any of the "accepted" reasons for getting help apply, I will get help without hesitation. But I don't do fishing expeditions!

djcarter1966 · Apr 26, 2016

BretMan said:
Coach: "We just want to get the call right".

Umpire: "We already did...'.

This whole "can you ask for help" thing seems to be getting out of hand. Two of the biggest blow ups I had last year were because I refused to get help (ie: appease the coach). One put out at first base with no issues of my view getting blocked, pulled foot, swipe tag, bobbled ball, etc. The other was a steal of second base (with the plate umpire being 85 feet away).

Both coaches were just fishing for a second opinion because the call didn't go their way. This is exactly when the umpire should NOT check with his partner! If you saw the play clearly and made your best judgment, then you are doing the job you're paid to do.

If you huddle up with your partner- and waste game time- just to "appease" the coach, then you are inviting them to come out and question EVERY close call that doesn't go their way. You might be in for a long afternoon!

Just to be clear...if any of the "accepted" reasons for getting help apply, I will get help without hesitation. But I don't do fishing expeditions!

Which is why as the "other" umpire I would never overrule my partner unless I was 1000% sure. Usually its a first base pulled foot that is really obvious from home plate vantage point but in general just huddle up and make the coach happy and stick with your call and never dispute your partners call without huddling up and talking things through even if you are 90+% sure your want to overrule him you just stick with the call.

Momo'sDad · Apr 26, 2016

djcarter1966 said:
Which is why as the "other" umpire I would never overrule my partner unless I was 1000% sure.

To my (rather limited) knowledge, what Comp said is correct. An umpire does not "overrule" the call of another umpire. When you offer help on a call, the umpire who made the original call may or may not change what they called initially.

MTR · Apr 26, 2016

djcarter1966 said:
Which is why as the "other" umpire I would never overrule my partner unless I was 1000% sure. Usually its a first base pulled foot that is really obvious from home plate vantage point but in general just huddle up and make the coach happy and stick with your call and never dispute your partners call without huddling up and talking things through even if you are 90+% sure your want to overrule him you just stick with the call.

Good, because you are not permitted to overrule anyone. The only thing the partner should offer is a specific response to a specific question. It is entirely up to the calling umpire to consider that additional information and act as s/he sees fit.

If an umpire knows s/he had all the aspects of the call in front of them and are confident the call is correct, the umpire shouldn't go to his/her partner just for the sake of making a coach happy. If the coach doesn't like that, s/he needs to learn how to coach his/her team and understand that the game is won with good play, not trying to game the umpires into a call.

djcarter1966 · Apr 26, 2016

Poor choice of words obviously...

Appealing judgement calls

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