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halskinner

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May 7, 2008
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Arizona State's Dallas Escobedo, Riseball:

iom5ci.gif


In both these videos, I do not see a riseball grip or riseball follow through.

What I believe I am seeing is a cuveball placed high in the zone.

She is striding out and to the left = curveball.
She has a slight lean to the left at landing foot touchdown = curveball.
Her wrist action is from right / low to lerft / high = curveball or up and in.

For a riseball, she would want to give a lean to the right to get further 'Under" the ball to better help achieve riseball spin.
 
Last edited:
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
In both these videos, I do not see a riseball grip or riseball follow through.

What I believe I am seeing is a cuveball placed high in the zone.

She is striding out and to the left = curveball.
She has a slight lean to the left at landing foot touchdown = curveball.
Her wrist action is from right / low to lerft / high = curveball or up and in.

For a riseball, she would want to give a lean to the right to get further 'Under" the ball to better help achieve riseball spin.

Hal ... the commentators classified this as a riseball. I personally could see this as a riseball/screwball ... but not as a curveball. The tracer that we see is pretty much typical for a riseball ... i.e., this is how a real riseball 'moves' ... this is the path of a riseball ... there is no sudden northward 'jump' as the ball approaches the plate. This year's WCWS should help make that more clear to those that are still fighting the concept.

iom5ci.gif



Compare the vertical profile of Dallas' riseball to vertical profile of Michelle Smith's riseball.

24v77u9.gif
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,681
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Hal ... the commentators classified this as a riseball. I personally could see this as a riseball/screwball ... but not as a curveball. The tracer that we see is pretty much typical for a riseball ... i.e., this is how a real riseball 'moves' ... this is the path of a riseball ... there is no sudden northward 'jump' as the ball approaches the plate. This year's WCWS should help make that more clear to those that are still fighting the concept.

iom5ci.gif



Compare the vertical profile of Dallas' riseball to vertical profile of Michelle Smith's riseball.

24v77u9.gif

In both examples, the ball is starting off low and going in a straight line to a high point.

The ball does not vary from that path, it does not come up above that straight line. Iy is a very deceptive pitcj but it does not rise at any point above that straight line.

This is the high school rise ball, the cut rise and that is not a real riseball.

I dont care who the commentator is. I know what I am seeing and that is NOT a riseball grip, stride or follow through.

Call that a riseball if you and the commentator want to. I know better.

"Compare the vertical profile of Dallas' riseball to vertical profile of Michelle Smith's riseball." Michelle Smith is using riseball machanics and is sharply leaning to the throwing side. The other pitcher is leaning slightly to the glove side at LFT and release, this is mechanics for a curveball.
 
Last edited:
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
In both examples, the ball is starting off low and going in a straight line to a high point.

The ball does not vary from that path, it does not come up above that straight line. Iy is a very deceptive pitcj but it does not rise at any point above that straight line.

This is the high school rise ball, the cut rise and that is not a real riseball.

I dont care who the commentator is. I know what I am seeing and that is NOT a riseball grip, stride or follow through.

Call that a riseball if you and the commentator want to. I know better.

"Compare the vertical profile of Dallas' riseball to vertical profile of Michelle Smith's riseball." Michelle Smith is using riseball machanics and is sharply leaning to the throwing side. The other pitcher is leaning slightly to the glove side at LFT and release, this is mechanics for a curveball.

Hal, it does not appear that you do know any better ... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ... put up a GIF with the profile of a riseball pitch outlined. The pitches shown above represent the typical profile of a riseball. If you have data to the contrary, then I'd like to see it. Mere words aren't enough ... I've heard many people spout off about a fantasy riseball that mysteriously jumps as it approaches the batter ... and the reality is that doesn't happen. Where's your supporting data?
 
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halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,681
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Very well. I have resurrected an older post entitled "Teaching the bent fingered riseball and the up and in".

Almost all of us 'Old timers' that threw a 'REAL' riseball, we chuckle at all the 'Rookies' that have never seen one, never threw one themselves, dont know how to teach it or just dont believe there is such a pitch. The ones that scream there is no such thiong the loudest, that will be your instructors that do not know how to teach it, the ones that ONLY know the 'Cut' riseball (AKA; the high school riseball, the airplane riseball).

Is the cut riseball an effective pitch? Yup. Pitchers win games with it? Yes they do. Does it hop or jump? Nope, straight line low to high. Is it a real riseball? HAH, not even close.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
Hal, all you have to do is produce ONE video of someone throwing a rise ball where the ball's trajectory at some point is greater than its initial trajectory. There isn't one...because it doesn't happen.

With a male pitcher, the ball is moving upward when the ball crosses the plate. However, that doesn't mean that the ball's path has risen above its initial release trajectory. It means only that the ball hasn't reached its apogee when it crosses the plate. (A man is throwing 10 to 15 MPH faster than a woman.)

I agree that hitting a male pitcher's rise ball is about as close to impossible as one can get. I have caught rise balls before, and I know what they look like, and I agree completely that they appear to rise when they get to the plate. But, they don't.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
Very well. I have resurrected an older post entitled "Teaching the bent fingered riseball and the up and in".

Almost all of us 'Old timers' that threw a 'REAL' riseball, we chuckle at all the 'Rookies' that have never seen one, never threw one themselves, dont know how to teach it or just dont believe there is such a pitch. The ones that scream there is no such thiong the loudest, that will be your instructors that do not know how to teach it, the ones that ONLY know the 'Cut' riseball (AKA; the high school riseball, the airplane riseball).

Is the cut riseball an effective pitch? Yup. Pitchers win games with it? Yes they do. Does it hop or jump? Nope, straight line low to high. Is it a real riseball? HAH, not even close.

Hal ... what people are chuckling about is that there are people out there teaching a fantasy that violates basic physics ..... people that claim to be pitching instructors, yet don't have the foggiest understanding of how a riseball moves. But go ahead ... video yourself throwing a 'real riseball' and post it here.

I have videos of both Bill Hillhouse & Mike White throwing riseballs ... both are very good riseball pitchers ... and neither demonstrated a northward 'jump' as the ball approached the plate.

I know it may be difficult for some hard core pitching instructors to believe ... but many of them have been preaching a fantasy all along. It's sort of like nobody telling them the truth about the Easter Bunny.

Please ... post a video supporting what you teach as the proper profile of a riseball. If you are like others that believe in a northward 'jump' as the ball approaches the plate then you won't do it ... because you'll learn that you were wrong ... the only question on my end is why those that learn that they are wrong continue to push their false teachings on young kids that truly wish to learn how to throw a real riseball.
 
Nov 29, 2009
2,975
83
I agree that hitting a male pitcher's rise ball is about as close to impossible as one can get. I have caught rise balls before, and I know what they look like, and I agree completely that they appear to rise when they get to the plate. But, they don't.

What the rise doe is fool the hitters brain. Every person's brain on the planet is programmed to the speed of gravity. It automatically adjusts for gravity pulling an object downwards at the same speed. It's where we live our entire lives.

I remember watching NASA videos of test subjects in a centrifuge who were given the task of repeatedly reaching out and touching a target in front of the them while under 4 or 5 G's of force. After doing it for a while the subjects were able to complete the task with no problem. They stopped them and then told the subjects to repeat the task. All of them missed the target the first time or two because the brain had conditioned the body on how to perform the task under different physical conditions.

It's the same thing with a rise. The spin of the rise helps the seams keep the ball from falling at the speed of gravity slightly. The hitters brain gets fooled and thinks the ball will fall at the speed of gravity making the wrong adjustments on where they think the ball should be when they swing. I have caught thousands of riseballs from my DD. Even though I know better, it still looks like a real good one jumps at the end.

Hal, you're right. My DD had somewhat of bullet type spin on her ball rather than a traditional 12-6 rotation.
 
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