Peel Drop

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halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
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Just watched it again. The ball also appears to be breaking to the outside as well. You are looking at a drop curve motion I think.

Hal
 
Dec 30, 2009
49
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Dear Boardmember,

It is refreshing to hear someone talk about pitching with your kind of insight- what you said about the roll-drop and the impossibility of realistically pulling down on the front of the ball as it is being released was music to my ears!!!! At the same time it is amazing to me how many kids come to me for lessons who have been taught that pulling down concept and nearly turn themselves inside out trying to throw it that way... coming way forward with their pitching shoulder, etc. Could you agree that the basic difference between a " roll " and a " peel " is that the lift on the back side of the ball ( as you described it previously ) with the " roll " is caused by the fingers being horizontal and on the " peel " the fingers are vertical- as it is being released ?
 
Mar 18, 2009
131
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La Crosse WI
board member:
Have you ever pitched a rollover drop? Apparently not.
In my previous comment, I am stating a fact, not a question -- there's no way that a pitcher can deliver a rollover drop at a speed that compares with a peel drop. And there's no reason to want to. The mechanics of a rollover results in less speed, which compliments the forward roll, which results in a more dramatic falloff of the trajectory. Thus a more effective drop.
I don't understand what you visualize what a rollover drop is, other than the fingers rolling over the top of the ball and down the front at the point of release to impart greater forward spin. If you're saying the spin on a rollover drop comes from the hand/fingers pulling up on the ball without a corresponding drive of the hand downward over the top, then all you're describing is a variation of a peel, not a rollover. Any rollover is naturally going to be slower than a peel, which is a fastball delivered with more whip from the fingers up the back side of the ball.
jim
 
Jan 27, 2010
516
16
The 1st clip Boardmember posts is a roll over or turn over drop. The clip with Cat shows a turn or roll-over peel. You notice she pulls up before she rolls over, the ball has already left the hand. The 1st clip, the pitcher clearly rolls over.
 
Last edited:
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
Dear Boardmember,

It is refreshing to hear someone talk about pitching with your kind of insight- what you said about the roll-drop and the impossibility of realistically pulling down on the front of the ball as it is being released was music to my ears!!!! At the same time it is amazing to me how many kids come to me for lessons who have been taught that pulling down concept and nearly turn themselves inside out trying to throw it that way... coming way forward with their pitching shoulder, etc. Could you agree that the basic difference between a " roll " and a " peel " is that the lift on the back side of the ball ( as you described it previously ) with the " roll " is caused by the fingers being horizontal and on the " peel " the fingers are vertical- as it is being released ?

River.........I agree 1000%......With the exception of course that the wrist/hand CANNOT actually orient horizontally to the ground during the delivery phase......Or ANY OTHER PHASE of the pitch for that matter.........It's physically and anotomicallly IMPOSSIBLE...........Which is why RedHawks description of a "roll over drop" is what he "feels" is happening vs. what is actually happening............

Hal was correct when he descibed a "flip drop" which would have the wrist/hand "invert" during the release phase.......And is absolutely thrown OFF SPEED.......On purpose.......

Hal, regarding Cat's pitch........IMO, there is a VERY SLIGHT horizontal movement, and VERY MUCH OVERSPIN......Not bullet spin.....And it's because on the roll drop the fingers can get slightly outside of the direct mid-point of the ball........And for Cat, it keeps the ball moving gently away from the lefty hitter without giving up to much of the plate.........

Tojo has introduced a "new term".......A "roll peel".............Tojo........I don't have a problem with that term......But it is simply a "roll drop" the way I know it........

In other words, a "peel drop" is a vertical orientation wrist/finger snap inducing forward spin.........A "roll drop" is a more horizontal or I/R wrist/finger snap ALSO inducing forward spin........

Hollowell throws a vertical snap "peel drop".........Osterman throws a I/R "roll drop"...........

Also, I'd like to point something out to you Tojo..........

This young lady throws a "roll peel" (your term).......She absolutely DOES NOT roll over the top of the ball.........Her hand snaps up the back of the ball using I/R, and continues turning her wrist over LONG after the ball is gone.........

At NO TIME does her hand/fingers "get on top" any part of the ball...........And at NO TIME are her wrist or fingers HORIZONTAL to the ground facing downward during the release phase.........It's just no possible.......No matter what your eyes "think they see" in real time

Also keep in mind that this clip is 30fps, vs. Ostermans 60fps........So you see more wrist/finger position "detail" in the Osterman clip as compared to this student..........

2nuudc2.gif


Michelle Smith ALSO throws a roll drop........But again is filmed at 60fps showing more detail of the wrist/finger action.........If you notice, her hand contines to pronate "roll over" to face the ground AFTER the ball is gone..........But at NO TIME are her wrist/fingers close to "rolling over" the top of the ball as RedHawk suggests is possible........It simply isn't...........

69pzqs.gif


As far as velocity goes...........I'd love to see someone tell Fernandez her "roll drop" is slower then her "peel drop"........

2eqb9rt.gif


Again......Never gets "on top".......or "down the front" the ball with any part of her wrist/fingers........
 
Last edited:
Jan 27, 2010
516
16
Boardmember, the term "roll-over peel drop" is not a new term. The roll or turn over peel drop is taught by many instructors. Nancy Evans, formerly of Arizona and now a coach in the Netherlands, teaches this drop. A lot of pitchers struggle with the peel drop release and throw a lot of high pitchs. The roll over aides the pitcher with timing the release. I do agree that the roll or turn over drop can be thrown fast as any pitch. I know that it can because my oldest DD threw it and it was as fast as her FB or screwball. A close friend of mine, his DD's fastest pitch is her roll over drop. I clocked her at a TB tournament and it was also her fastest pitch.The young lady you referred to is definitely rolling over the top of the ball and then extends after the roll over as a follow through "no matter what your eyes see".
 
Last edited:
Dec 30, 2009
49
0
Dear Boardmember and Tojo,

Could we define a " roll-over " drop as a pitch that comes off the side of the fingers ( with the hand as close to horizontal as possible with the wrist deviated as much as possible at release point ) and a " peel " drop as a pitch that comes off the end of the fingers with both releases primarily creating 12-6 spin. Also, guys, what is a " fastball "??? I pitched at the highest level for 30 years and NEVER heard the term " fastball ". Instead my drop I guess was my fastball and my rise I guess was my fastball because I threw both of them as hard as I could !! ( I threw just as hard at 50 years of age as I did at 20; but it just didn't go as fast !! ) LOL
 
Nov 6, 2008
71
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“And it's because on the roll drop the fingers can get slightly outside of the direct mid-point of the ball.......”

This sentence sheds more light on the slight difference between the two than all else that has been said. I tell my students to lead the peel with the thumb oriented forward and down. For the rollover, applying more thumb pressure on the ball rotates the thumb in and enhances the “quicker” IR needed for the pitch from the 3 O’clock position through release.
 
Dec 30, 2009
49
0
“And it's because on the roll drop the fingers can get slightly outside of the direct mid-point of the ball.......”

This sentence sheds more light on the slight difference between the two than all else that has been said. I tell my students to lead the peel with the thumb oriented forward and down. For the rollover, applying more thumb pressure on the ball rotates the thumb in and enhances the “quicker” IR needed for the pitch from the 3 O’clock position through release.
I would submit to " sjss " that the peel drop should also be thrown with the fingers slightly outside the direct mid-point of the ball which is what should be happening if the thumb is pointing down at 12:00 as the ball is being released. ( If the thumb is at 12:00 at release, the middle finger is at about 4:30 which creates the pressure outside of the direct mid-point of the ball as you have suggested happens on the roll. I think by what you're saying that you would agree that the roll drop release makes it easier to create some sliding action on the ball that you wouldn't necessarily get with a peel !! )
 

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