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Thread: crow hop fix/help

  1. #31
    Softball Junkie Hillhouse's Avatar
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    Far be it of me to ever argue with Milli Vanili, AKA Java. But I still think crow hopping begins with a hand issue, pausing or hitching the arm circle. I can see it in the video clip of the pitcher. And, as with all crow hoppers, the hitch happens at the exact moment the foot goes sideways. But, I am certainly open to hearing and understanding how you fix your crow hoppers Mike. It doesn't really appear to be a wrong answer, as long as it gets fixed. I think we just differ on what we think the cause is. And, of course, I'm right. ha ha ha.

    Now, in the video, the actual crow hop is not very large. I know I know, illegal is illegal. You cannot be "a little bit pregnant", either you are or you aren't. So, yes, she's doing it. But, i'd be curious to know if she does this outside in games. I have known pitchers who "cheat" when pitching indoors, looking for something to push off that isn't there. Yes, I see she has a pitching rubber but, it's not one that can be used for pushing off like one in the ground. So, sometimes pitchers do things indoors that they don't necessarily do outdoors.

    Bill


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  3. #32
    Certified softball maniac STRIKE3's Avatar
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    I love this site! It brings some of the greatest minds like Bill Hillhouse, Rick P, on occasion Rich B, Mike aka. Milli Vanilli, aka Java and others and let's us discuss things, throw out ideas, thoughts, etc. This site allows you to ask questions, create positive discussioon and debate, etc. At the end of the day, everyone learns even the best. Always room to learn and I am eternally softball grateful for that! I learn everyday and hopefully will become a better coach, mentor, bucket dad, etc. IMO, nobody who comes here ever has a closed mind and always has a willingness to learn and become better.

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  5. #33
    Certified softball maniac STRIKE3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillhouse View Post
    Far be it of me to ever argue with Milli Vanili, AKA Java. But I still think crow hopping begins with a hand issue, pausing or hitching the arm circle. I can see it in the video clip of the pitcher. And, as with all crow hoppers, the hitch happens at the exact moment the foot goes sideways. But, I am certainly open to hearing and understanding how you fix your crow hoppers Mike. It doesn't really appear to be a wrong answer, as long as it gets fixed. I think we just differ on what we think the cause is. And, of course, I'm right. ha ha ha.

    Now, in the video, the actual crow hop is not very large. I know I know, illegal is illegal. You cannot be "a little bit pregnant", either you are or you aren't. So, yes, she's doing it. But, i'd be curious to know if she does this outside in games. I have known pitchers who "cheat" when pitching indoors, looking for something to push off that isn't there. Yes, I see she has a pitching rubber but, it's not one that can be used for pushing off like one in the ground. So, sometimes pitchers do things indoors that they don't necessarily do outdoors.

    Bill
    With the above reply Bill please share your thoughts as I am a huge fan of yours. I asked the question earlier to the OP and haven't received a reply yet. But I will go out on a limb and ask......why fix it? Yes, it is illegal but who cares. Umps rarely call it and we have 100's of examples of D1 pitchers who do it and do it successfully. Yes, on occasion they will get called for it but it is so rare. Years ago I was in the camp of illegal crow hoppers are dirt. But after seeing so many of them enter the game every year I am now like yes, she is illegal, but who cares. So many are.

    I do believe there is a legal way to pitch under our stupid rules which don't apply throughout the world, to men, etc. I also believe there is a very good way to take advantage of our "stupid" rules and pitch very effective. IE. Rachel Garcia, the queen of softball today. Monica Abbott, not a great example for us DFP folks as she takes a step like so many others. Garcia is the best example in the game today but I digress......sorry for that.

    All that said, I agree with you on the hitch. However, I would caution everyone it is a hand issues like you said above. Everyone will start trying to fix their hand.....and not sure it is a hand issue for everyone. Barnhill has no issues with her hand and does not have a hitch. She delays her backswing and as at almost 6:00 as she detaches from the rubber. Not hitch for her and just a delay so more than one way to skin a cat. Regardless, I absolutley agree with you about the hitch especially as it pertains to mens fastpitch. It is obvious and see it all the time and you are right on but I struggle that it is truly a "hand" issue for everyone. Regardless, I want your feedback and thoughts and look forward to @java aka milli vaniilli's thoughst as well.

    But at the end of the day, we are trying to create the best "legal" pitchers in a world full of more than ever illegal pitchers. Should we or OP really even attemp to change? Is it worth the frustration of changing? I wish I could easily say yes but every year I find it harder to say that as the top teams in the country recruit the most illegal pitchers out there. Frustrating......
    Last edited by STRIKE3; 03-16-2019 at 12:00 PM.

  6. #34
    6-4-3 = 2 javasource's Avatar
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    Bill,

    You know my respect for you is through the roof... so when I say this... please hear this as merely conversational... that correction you mention, I've heard for years and years... from people that were pitching/coaching before you and I were pulling on our daddy's pant leg... and addition... every one of those that have told me this, made a video about it, or written about it... also say it's a very time-intensive fix... one of the harder ones.

    What I am saying is... I was handed the same info you were... and it doesn't work. So... I struggled with my first crowhoppiing for two years. Long story short... she continued to, and moved on from me (played D3).

    That never sat well with me... and I started to break it down... teaching myself to crowhop. I immidiately discovered it felt more like a sling shot or step style pitch... with a grab at the top of the circle... so I understood IMMEDIATELY why people were talking about the "hitch".

    I also couldn't help but notice the "ninja position"... as my background in biomechanics destroys this as an efficient delivery method... as well as a destroyer of backs, hips, and because of the disconnect, eventually the shoulders. Like H/E and all the ancient concepts that set people back in this sport, just trying to debunk this myth.

    Obviously... all of our advice is worth what people on here pay for it, right?

    If anyone is interested, the hitch is a result of excessive external rotation of the humerus... in regards to when it occurs during elevation of the arm. It's the same hitch you see when a rhp brings the ball up the circle with palm under the ball or palm to 3rd. The circumduction of the arm is interrupted by the necessity of external rotation in the glenohumeral joint... as you can't pass over top without the arm getting to a partially E/R'd position. Crowhoppiing involves a sharp opening as you described... and when it occurs, it slows the circumduction of the arm when the arm is at 12... the exact moment the humerus is looking for E/R... AND... the exact same moment the right foot (rhp) is pushing the second time. When this happens... if the excessive ER in the shoulder socket is not a problem... we SEE a hitch... but that's really just a grab, from the athlete trying to leverage the ground with the BACK leg. Asking them to stop leveraging... would be the same as asking someone who didn't crowhop (leap & drag style) to stop using frontside resistance. They would be throwing pus. Crowhoppers use that second push as their main powersource... then some FSR. Leap & Draggers only have the FSR... hence no hitch... unless they come up the circle as I mentioned...

    Anyway, I'm just glad the O/P tried it, shared it, and after a day... is already experiencing results. Eventually (once the muscle memory has set in... like 6-8 weeks) they can be comfortable with letting the "eye of the knee" point DOWN the 3B line. If it ever starts to look back UP THE 3B line... they know the fix.

    I'll end with a quote from our mp3 players:

    "You can... blame it on the rain, blame it on the rain, blame it on the rain..."

    ...and to the OP's DD... "Girl you know it's true..."

    (just messing with ya...)
    Last edited by javasource; 03-16-2019 at 07:33 AM.

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  8. #35
    I can talk softball all day diamond14's Avatar
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    Java, Great advice and explanations thru the thread. thank you so much!
    To playaction: My DD struggled with the drive leg anchoring and not adducting. I believe so much of the problem came from her intial coaching of HE/"get Open" style before we became enlightended. Mike's drive mechanic advice here is just HUGE. Ive printed out the PDF and keep it with me during the week and re-read sections and always find new nuggets. Creating greater drive has helped to keep the drive leg from being left behind. The other thing was our coach early on suggested it was a muscular deficiency and provided a few exercises. While they surely didnt hurt, it was not part of a holistic strengthening program. Once she started a more complete and rigorous exercise regimen, improvement in all aspects of pitching were enchanced. Again, a great place to start is the drive mechanics thread.

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  10. #36
    I can talk softball all day bobbyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by javasource View Post
    Eventually (once the muscle memory has set in... like 6-8 weeks) they can be comfortable with letting the "eye of the knee" point DOWN the 3B line. If it ever starts to look back UP THE 3B line... they know the fix.
    Glad you you threw this in there and hope it doesn't get overlook!

    Agree with Strike3...site is great...we have pro's, we have duct tape, chalk, squeaky toys, body art...and a knee eye peaking at 3rd!
    Got to love it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by javasource View Post
    Getting open has caused more issues than it has solved... although we all know it doesn't cause blindness... when we use it as an instruction it destroys posture and can lead to crow hopping
    This right here needs its own post. I donít know how many times I heard, ďthe first thing you do is turn to get open.Ē I spent money for an instructor to teach this just to turn around and spend more money to correct this.


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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillhouse View Post
    Far be it of me to ever argue with Milli Vanili, AKA Java. But I still think crow hopping begins with a hand issue, pausing or hitching the arm circle. I can see it in the video clip of the pitcher. And, as with all crow hoppers, the hitch happens at the exact moment the foot goes sideways. But, I am certainly open to hearing and understanding how you fix your crow hoppers Mike. It doesn't really appear to be a wrong answer, as long as it gets fixed. I think we just differ on what we think the cause is. And, of course, I'm right. ha ha ha.

    Now, in the video, the actual crow hop is not very large. I know I know, illegal is illegal. You cannot be "a little bit pregnant", either you are or you aren't. So, yes, she's doing it. But, i'd be curious to know if she does this outside in games. I have known pitchers who "cheat" when pitching indoors, looking for something to push off that isn't there. Yes, I see she has a pitching rubber but, it's not one that can be used for pushing off like one in the ground. So, sometimes pitchers do things indoors that they don't necessarily do outdoors.

    Bill
    Coming from someone who donít know nearly as much as pitching as others, I am actually interested in the idea of knowing different ways to correct a crow hopper. I find it interesting how different girls respond to different cues. What might work for one girl doesnít work for another...Just like instructors. (Just my 2 cents, now back to more pitching reading...so one day D stop replanting.)


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    Softball Junkie Crystal Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STRIKE3 View Post
    I love this site! It brings some of the greatest minds like Bill Hillhouse, Rick P, on occasion Rich B, Mike aka. Milli Vanilli, aka Java and others and let's us discuss things, throw out ideas, thoughts, etc. This site allows you to ask questions, create positive discussioon and debate, etc. At the end of the day, everyone learns even the best. Always room to learn and I am eternally softball grateful for that! I learn everyday and hopefully will become a better coach, mentor, bucket dad, etc. IMO, nobody who comes here ever has a closed mind and always has a willingness to learn and become better.
    If it wasnít for this site, I probably still be paying for bad pitching instruction.


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    Checking out the clubhouse Barr110's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond14 View Post
    Java, Great advice and explanations thru the thread. thank you so much!
    To playaction: My DD struggled with the drive leg anchoring and not adducting. I believe so much of the problem came from her intial coaching of HE/"get Open" style before we became enlightended. Mike's drive mechanic advice here is just HUGE. Ive printed out the PDF and keep it with me during the week and re-read sections and always find new nuggets. Creating greater drive has helped to keep the drive leg from being left behind. The other thing was our coach early on suggested it was a muscular deficiency and provided a few exercises. While they surely didnt hurt, it was not part of a holistic strengthening program. Once she started a more complete and rigorous exercise regimen, improvement in all aspects of pitching were enchanced. Again, a great place to start is the drive mechanics thread.
    Where can I find Mike's drive mechanics info? I would like to also print it out.


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