Detachment and timing. Is 3:00 absolute?

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Nov 25, 2012
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Starting this thread in the hopes of having a discussion around detachment, 3:00 being an absolute or not, and more importantly TIMING of arm rotation and drive to maximize velocity.

I can show you as they are posted all over DFP complete detachment by 3:00 by many of the best to have ever played the game. With that said, I have also seen over the years other "best in class" pitchers that have a later detachment. Some much later than others and some we might be splitting hairs on but later nonetheless. I am going to post pictures of a few of them separately to keep it somewhat clean and not jumbled up. Please forgive my editing as I took these off my computer with an older I-Phone.

I will start with the picture posts and hopefully others can ask questions, offer thoughts and explanations, etc. and we can take it from there. Perhaps some will come to the conclusion that all that work to change a pitchers timing so that they are at 3 is pointless. Perhaps others will decide it is very much on point and to keep working to get it there.

Anyway, that is the whole idea and hope it helps those who are looking for some ideas.

S3
 
Apr 28, 2016
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8
Fun! I’m not an expert but like to compare videos of my DD to threads like this one. Following


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Nov 25, 2012
1,437
83
USA
Jake Elliott

Jake is definitely a DFP favorite and certainly one of mine. I reached out to [MENTION=10413]riseball[/MENTION] to get his permission on this one and look forward to his comments as always!

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Apr 12, 2015
792
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I view detachment by 3:00 as a guideline, not an absolute. Much like plant foot at a 45 degree angle. Various pitchers are going to slightly more or less 45 degrees just as some are going to be detached slightly before or after 3:00.

The important part - and what detachment by 3:00 signifies - is that the lower body is ahead of the upper body in the timing. If "left behind", the upper body, specifically the arm circle, will catch up with the lower body. Often this is felt as a sense of urgency in the pitcher, much like the feeling of overlap in the windup creates.

If the upper body is ahead of the lower body in the timing, all kinds of things will be out of whack. But most important is the lower body will never "catch up" to the upper body. At this point, any drive force is essentially wasted and the pitcher might as well just step out rather than drive out.

ETA: Also, it is important to define what detachment is...this isn't simply the point at which the foot leaves the rubber. In a proper drive, it is the point where the body essentially becomes weightless which causes the hips to open naturally. In Jake's pictures above, you can see this in the third picture, where her arm is about at 1:00. You can see her hips starting to open due to her drive being completed. In the fourth picture, you can see her hips have completed the opening and her arm is at about 12:00. At plant foot landing, I'd expect to see her about 11:00 or 10:00.

In the Ricketts example, this occurs in the 4th frame, again when her arm is about 1:00. Though I imagine she actually achieved detachment somewhere between the third and fourth frame.

Detachment occurs when the body becomes weightless and the hips open naturally.
 
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Nov 25, 2012
1,437
83
USA
Brooke Vestal - OU Freshman

If you haven't seen Riseball (the documentary FloSoftball did) you should check it out. Great kid, #1 pitcher in the country recruited last year, committed very early and looking forward to great things at OU this year.

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Nov 25, 2012
1,437
83
USA
Jackie Traina

This is going to be the last one for now...... Traina may be splitting hairs a bit but still think she is past 3 at detachment.
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Apr 12, 2015
792
93
Brooke Vestal is a phenomenal pitcher, but her drive is among the weakest you will find. She is past 12:00 by the time her hips really open.

Jackie Traina achieves detachment sometime between the second and third clips you've shown. She is will into detachment in the third clip.

Tatum Edwards is, in my opinion, a fantastic model of great drive and timing. https://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/5208-model-pitchers-26.html#post386841

Amanda Scarborough is another.
 
Last edited:
Nov 25, 2012
1,437
83
USA
Brooke Vestal is a phenomenal pitcher, but her drive is among the weakest you will find. She is past 12:00 by the time her hips really open.

Jackie Traina achieves detachment sometime between the second and third clips you've shown. She is will into detachment in the third clip.

Great points DNeeld and exactly what kind of discussion I was looking to get out of this. I look forward to others over the next day or so.
 
Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm2UGkK6gZE

watched this clip of Jackie several times... Her forward drive is less than I'd accept from my students. However, it looks like a 2:00 detatchment on this pitch.
We can't argue with Jackies success, however In my opinion she is not a fundamental mechanics model I'd use to teach kids.... neither is Barnhill for that fact.
Riseball made a comment last week on the initial thread regarding the queen of the hill devise... he said something to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing) "the drive isnt as important as how you apply the forces after toe touch"... I 100% agree with that, However if the initial forces are strong and in sync, there will be more potential kinetic energy to redirect into the pitch.
 

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