Detachment and timing. Is 3:00 absolute?

Ken B said:

Generally, you will see a jump in speed from those with the timing/sequence to be able to detach at 3. Replanters use different timing/sequence.

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Thanks Ken and I think the word "generally" defines it well. 3 is generally a good place to be looking for and perhaps should be the target. But I would encourage others that if they are off the mark a bit not to worry about it.
IMHO, 3:00 is not an absolute as shown by many examples on this thread. Again, IMHO. Earlier in the thread it was stated that it is similar to landing at a 45. I think that was a great analogy as not every girl is going to land at a 45 but somewhere in the area and using 45 as a target will likely get them to where they need to be mechanically. Same with detachement IMO.

After thinking about this a little more I realized that another variable that has to be taken into account is the time that elapses between detachment and foot plant. A pitcher with a short step/leap has less time to get to from 3 to 10 o'clock and must move the ball faster or be at 2, 1, or 12 at detach. A pitcher that spends more time between detach and plant has more time to get from 3 to 10. If you look at the Barnhill video you can see that her replant extends the amount of time between detachment and foot plant thus she is able to start the ball at 5-6 like she does.

Cat's arm was too fast so her arm was in between the red line and the current position.

I think I may re-word my seminar language. Instead of Pitching Absolutes saying Pitching Key Principles and talking about certain things as goals rather than absolutes.

STRIKE3 said:

... more importantly TIMING of arm rotation and drive to maximize velocity.

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This is the key. Obviously, there are no absolutes in moving... but there can be absolutes in expectations, right? We can lower our expectations of our students, accept what they do... and then pretend that we helped a kid reach higher levels of her potential. To me, this is why there is so much growth potential in the game of softball... as its history is FULL of lowered expectations. H/E instruction... still running strong. Bullet-spin "riseballs"? 95% of what's out there. Low thrown bullety dropballs? Everywhere. Slowly thrown change-ups? 95% of what's out there. Avoiding reality doesn't change it, right? We find ourselves giving in to these lowered expectations all the time... because... let's face it: it's either easier than the work... or we simply don't know better.

In my opinion, the timing of movement is THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of movement... and the ONLY reliable measure of EFFICIENCY available to us RELATIVE TO HOW WE ORGANIZE OURSELVES OR THE MOVEMENT GOAL.

For example,I would hope you all see the importance in posture? How about I/R? How about front-side resistance? How about stability (kinetic transfer of energy)? I would hope you all agree that these are "absolutes"... right?

So, let's take a closer look at each of those...

Posture in pitching... is a referece to what? Isn't it to how we organize our body IN RELATION to what happens during the 0.4 seconds of the arm circle? Is there more than one pitching posture... and if so, don't they relate to an expectation that occurs in a moment of time? What is posture in athletic movements WITHOUT GREAT TIMING? Answer: poor.

I/R... is simply internal rotation. So... is that saying that we can internally rotate our arm whenever we want? Or was what John really trying to get you all to see is that it OCCURS AT THE RIGHT TIME. Is H/E poorly timed I/R? IMO... absolutely. Can a kid be early to I/R... and don't we call that a change-up? What about late? Don't they "miss the whip"... and throw slower... and expose themselves to shoulder, hip, and back injury?

Front-side resistance... ummm... isn't this in relation to release... or a SPECIFIC TIME in the motion? WHat is poor front-side resistance... I would venture out to say it's lack of applied force during the release phase... or most commonly... inability (NOT ENOUGH TIME) to create resistance.

Stability creating mobility. Bit of a lesson here... but passing energy from one body part to another REQUIRES that the LARGER body part slows... and in doing so, it passes energy to the smaller (less mass) body part... as it speeds up. Aren't the words "slow" and "speeds up" words that describe time?

Point being, without good timing... EVERYTHING we do in the pitching motion is INEFFICIENT.

So... no offense to those posted on here... or their respective parents/coaches... but can't we be objective enough to recognize that EVERY one of the examples have glaring inefficiencies relative to the timing of their movement?

If you're an active DFP follower... you've obviously learned the "Hansen Principle"... meaning, study what the best do, not say. But... in your evolution as a student of the game... when do we all recognize that "model pitchers" all have some level of inefficiency in their movement... and when we talk about TIMING OF MOVEMENT... there is a strong dividing line, between those we should "model" and those we might not.

As far as hyperarching mechanics and all that... jryan knows how I feel. I have great respect for him as a student/parent/coach... and I absolutely love his DD. Great people. IMO... and I'm well documented on here in conversation regarding this... despite the cause of his DD's timing issues... the fix has ALWAYS been in organization. In fact, he's so close in his thread to the answer... just looking in the wrong place, IMO. Again... not trying to hijack the thread, just responding to my dear friends in Colorado.

Truth is, deficiencies exist in all athletes. Timing is CRITICAL. Organization (relative to EACH athletes physiology) is CRITICAL. We should recognize all the movement options available to pitchers, and strip them down in those options UNTIL they start to express good timing. Posture, whip, resistance, spin, spot, I/R for speed(s), etc... are all slaves to the timing of movement.

So... now that I've vented... here's my very brief thought on the quesiton at hand:

3 o'clock is preferable... BUT Overlapping arm/leg movements at 3... they are absolute. I won't settle for less, because I have incredibly high expectations of EVERYONE I work with... pitchers, parents, and coaches alike.

Best, ~JS