Pitch Calling - Important?

Why bother teaching a pitcher or a catcher anything about calling a game? Seriously, help me understand this. Maybe this should be posted in the Catching forum or the Coaching forum but I'm hoping to get some feedback and opinions on this topic. I'm primarily referring to the 16/18U/High School Varsity age groups where kids are hitting their spots with at least a couple different pitches relatively consistently.

It seems like the current trend is to have a coach call everything from a bucket near the dugout. Input from the catcher is not entertained and pity the pitcher who dares shake off a called pitch. If the players have prior experience with the batter it doesn't matter. Paying attention to the batters swing, stance, where they are setting up in the box or even the mental/emotional state of the hitter is ignored (maybe not ignored completely but the catcher's opinion isn't factored in) by someone sitting 40ft away who of course has the book and is hopefully, at least following what happened in their last AB.

What's working for the Pitcher? Obviously this varies widely. Usually it's the catcher who see's this first. How accurately and quickly is she allowed to relay this info to the pitch caller varies widely? Some coaches seem to use the same strategy or sequence for every pitcher on their roster regardless of what they throw or how it's working that day.

Pace of the game. This is now determined by the bucket coach calling out numbers to the pitcher/catcher. Some teams are quicker with this than others. Some still have the catcher translate these numbers into signals for the pitcher. Usually not much time for any defensive shift. Often it's like watching paint dry.

It may be the way the game is heading but having an athlete robotically throw without being engaged in the mental chess match seems wrong to me. I believe it's a team within a team effort and should be explored, discussed and encouraged. Am I way off base in thinking about it this way?

DH started working with our pitcher on pitch calling when she started learning how to pitch in 8U. Even if she never gets a chance to do it in a real game, her game IQ is much higher than a lot of her peers. She just understands it. And part of that is talking through what pitches DH might call (he's really good at this) and why. She learned about defensive shifts depending on the batter and the pitch. She's learned about pitch selection as a hitter, from what she's learned as a pitcher. Watch her accurately predict a change up - it's a beautiful thing when she's at bat. So I don't think you're off base at all. This knowledge seems to make them better players even if they don't get a chance to use it.

In 2nd year 10U DH had a system with the catchers to signal him where the batter was setting up. I don't know why he didn't do it last year; it worked pretty well.

Love it, and I'm 100% with you.

Teach them how and let them run with it. Sure there are times when I feel like I want something specific, I may yell to my catcher. Most of those times though, she just smiles back at me like "I already know". Feels good when that happens.

I coach 14u - i call pitches - but i take input from both P & C pre game and in between every inning

i also hand over duties to both of my catchers for parts/all of games when i am able......we constantly talk about sequencing, why we call pitches when, how we set up location differently on the same pitch call depending on situation, what to look for on batters, why we work certain batters a certain way, etc, etc, etc

even IF i am calling pitches, knowing these things makes them better.....and they know i will listen to their input.....i can't tell you how many times i have yelled out to my pitcher in a big spot, especially when they have missed a spot or two, that their catcher has the next call......to have confidence in their teammate and let it rip......and 9 times out of 10, the call works.....might not be my call, but the confidence between P/C cannot be over stated

i don't want robots......but at the same time, i still feel i can call a better overall game......and i go out of my way to make sure my P/C understands what we are doing and why, because that makes them better even if i am making calls

at the collegiate level......i get it, coaches have more time to go over scouting and more experience and it is often their job on the line as much as anything

Unfortunately this is going to vary significantly by coach and by team. Personally, I prefer having the catcher call the pitches, but always try to speak with both the catcher and pitcher in between innings. It is open discussion. They share their thoughts. I share mine. It isn't a matter of who is right or wrong. The three of us work together as a team. (Note: My team this summer utilized 2 catchers. One liked to call the game, so she did. The other preferred having me call the game, so I did. But I still asked for her input concerning the pitcher and the umpire/strike zone.)

The organization that DD started in had teams at multiple different levels. She would guest for the top team on occasion (yes, it was one of those teams that used "Elite" in its name...). At her very first showcase event, DW and I noticed two coaches directly behind the backstop watching DD pitch. She was ahead in the count. The coach (who was calling pitches at the time) gave his signal. She shook him off. He gave the same signal again. She shook him off again. He gave a different signal the third time, which she accepted. It resulted in a strike out. After the game we asked the coach about this. He stated that he intentionally called a certain pitch to see what DD would do. In his opinion, it was not the right pitch in the situation, but it was a test for her. She passed in his opinion. Plus he wanted the college coaches to see that she was capable of thinking for herself. It was his opinion that the coaches in attendance prefer smart players. I found it to be an interesting test at the time, but as I have gained more experience myself I realize it was a good move. Of course other coaches may have varying opinions about this...

Tatonka said:

It seems like the current trend is to have a coach call everything from a bucket near the dugout. Input from the catcher is not entertained and pity the pitcher who dares shake off a called pitch. If the players have prior experience with the batter it doesn't matter. Paying attention to the batters swing, stance, where they are setting up in the box or even the mental/emotional state of the hitter is ignored (maybe not ignored completely but the catcher's opinion isn't factored in) by someone sitting 40ft away who of course has the book and is hopefully, at least following what happened in their last AB.

Pace of the game. This is now determined by the bucket coach calling out numbers to the pitcher/catcher. Some teams are quicker with this than others. Some still have the catcher translate these numbers into signals for the pitcher. Usually not much time for any defensive shift. Often it's like watching paint dry.

It may be the way the game is heading but having an athlete robotically throw without being engaged in the mental chess match seems wrong to me. I believe it's a team within a team effort and should be explored, discussed and encouraged. Am I way off base in thinking about it this way?

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There are lots of clueless coaches out there. It is not any different than in the past. It hasn't changed all that much - maybe it is a little more visible or more noticeable since calls are now verbal versus the dance move signals but I see about the same level of stupid every week, .

Tatonka said:

I way off base in thinking about it this way?

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Yes and for a couple of reasons.

1. From a coaching perspective this tends to be a control issue issue with the parents more so than with the players. I have found that pitchers and catchers want to have input but rarely do they *want* to call a whole game or set of games in a tournament. Pitch calling is never an issue until a pitcher gets hammered and then the parent asks, "who called that pitch?". As if there was a magical pitch that we didn't call.

2. There is zero chance that we are holding up the game but communicating signs to the catcher and pitcher (we use wristbands). We constantly have to slow down to wait for the umpire or the batter.

3. This notion that pitch calling is a skill has been refuted numerous times. Your "eye-ball test" and "guy instinct" are no better than random chance. Who cares if it's the pitcher, catcher, or coach that is rolling the dice (again see #1, control issues...)

It may be the way the game is heading but having an athlete robotically throw without being engaged in the mental chess match seems wrong to me. I believe it's a team within a team effort and should be explored, discussed and encouraged. Am I way off base in thinking about it this way?

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I agree 100%.

A lot of coach pitch calling is about control. Daddies want control of everything.

Softball is very patriarchal. Heaven forbid if we allow girls and women to control something.

I have found that pitchers and catchers want to have input but rarely do they *want* to call a whole game or set of games in a tournament.

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Wow...that is a pretty ridiculous statement.

I've never ran into a pitcher or catcher who didn't want to call the game...and I'm not talking about just my DD or the kids I coached.

Any 16U pitcher who doesn't know more about pitching than the idiot sitting in the doorway of the dugout probably shouldn't be pitching.

The best way to actually do the whole pitch calling is to have a team effort between the coach and the player. The coaching staff should be tracking pitches, swings, hits, etc., and their should be frequent discussions between everyone about how to pitch to batters.

GunnerShotgun said:

Yes and for a couple of reasons.

1. From a coaching perspective this tends to be a control issue issue with the parents more so than with the players. I have found that pitchers and catchers want to have input but rarely do they *want* to call a whole game or set of games in a tournament. Pitch calling is never an issue until a pitcher gets hammered and then the parent asks, "who called that pitch?". As if there was a magical pitch that we didn't call.

2. There is zero chance that we are holding up the game but communicating signs to the catcher and pitcher (we use wristbands). We constantly have to slow down to wait for the umpire or the batter.

3. This notion that pitch calling is a skill has been refuted numerous times. Your "eye-ball test" and "guy instinct" are no better than random chance. Who cares if it's the pitcher, catcher, or coach that is rolling the dice (again see #1, control issues...)

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Gunner - I appreciate your opinion but I think you are jumping to conclusions about what lead to this post. And stating that there is zero chance of something? C'mon, open your mind to the possibility that not everyone does it as well as you must. And, I am really not understanding what you mean by the "eye-ball test" or "guy instinct" here??

sluggers said:

Wow...that is a pretty ridiculous statement.

I've never ran into a pitcher or catcher who didn't want to call the game...and I'm not talking about just my DD or the kids I coached.

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Not sure what to say. In 20 years I haven't had a pitcher or catcher that wanted to call every pitch of every game.

Perhaps this is because our system is player friendly and their input is taken into account so it isn't necessary. While I can't speak to other coaches and their systems this is not something I observe from other teams either.

Again the only time I hear about pitch calling concerns is from parents. From a players perspective it just hasn't been an issue.