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Thread: I give up.

  1. #41
    I'm a fan OsDad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNDad View Post
    You’d think the greatest softball area in the country would have a few good pitching coaches. Could probably get one of the pitchers from OSU or OU. While not all players are great coaches, 99% of the time they’re going to get more out of it than a lesson with dear old Dad.
    What I've found is that everyone around here wants to teach something that gets quick results at the 10u level, so that other parents will ask who their coach is- I'm obviously not a pitching guru but what I've been told, over and over, is that they just want accuracy, and that they can achieve it by teaching a wrist snap, shorter step, etc. There is a former OU pitcher who coaches here and she's fantastic with the kids in general, but she REALLY pushes snapping that wrist and getting that puppet hand up and saying hello to it. There are some really good pitchers around here but it seems like pulling teeth to get them to share who their coach is, or they're just coaching their own kid. I don't know.

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  3. #42
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball Rocketech1's Avatar
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    She looks good, maybe her current PC is not so bad? A couple of comments. I would build her a pitching area in your back yard so she isn't pitching on grass. Get some dirt and a pitching plate to pitch from. Right now she is walking through her pitch, I would try to work on keeping her back once she lands and delivers the pitch. If you can educate yourself on the basic fundamentals of the pitching motion and supplement that with a decent pitching coach, she will do great. Maybe ask parents of older quality pitchers who they use for a pitching coach?. For reading on DFP, Boardmember or Javasource are the gold standard on pitching instruction. Read the "Internal Rotation" and "IR in the Classroom" thread, it will give you great insight into understanding arm whip mechanics. Remember to say no to wrist flips and hello elbow finishes!

    Good luck!

  4. #43
    I'm a fan OsDad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketech1 View Post
    She looks good, maybe her current PC is not so bad? A couple of comments. I would build her a pitching area in your back yard so she isn't pitching on grass. Get some dirt and a pitching plate to pitch from. Right now she is walking through her pitch, I would try to work on keeping her back once she lands and delivers the pitch. If you can educate yourself on the basic fundamentals of the pitching motion and supplement that with a decent pitching coach, she will do great. Maybe ask parents of older quality pitchers who they use for a pitching coach?. For reading on DFP, Boardmember or Javasource are the gold standard on pitching instruction. Read the "Internal Rotation" and "IR in the Classroom" thread, it will give you great insight into understanding arm whip mechanics. Remember to say no to wrist flips and hello elbow finishes!

    Good luck!

    Thanks! She really hasn't had a regular coach, to be honest. She's done a couple of clinics here and there, and had a few lessons a couple of times, but a lot of it has just seemed to naturally click for her and she watches older girls pitch. She taught herself a change-up by watching some older girls practice it- she didn't even say anything. She just tried it once, when I was letting her pitch in the house (don't tell DW). I think maybe that's why I'm so worried about it. I would hate to waste something she seems to really enjoy and be naturally good at, by just not knowing how to find the best instruction I can find.


    *** I certainly do NOT want this to turn into any kind of "tell me how great she is" thread. I just kind of wanted to know where to start tinkering. It looks like most of the advice has been to leave her alone for now, outside of some small things at first.
    Last edited by OsDad; 07-10-2018 at 04:04 PM.

  5. #44
    Certified softball maniac MNDad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OsDad View Post
    What I've found is that everyone around here wants to teach something that gets quick results at the 10u level, so that other parents will ask who their coach is- I'm obviously not a pitching guru but what I've been told, over and over, is that they just want accuracy, and that they can achieve it by teaching a wrist snap, shorter step, etc. There is a former OU pitcher who coaches here and she's fantastic with the kids in general, but she REALLY pushes snapping that wrist and getting that puppet hand up and saying hello to it. There are some really good pitchers around here but it seems like pulling teeth to get them to share who their coach is, or they're just coaching their own kid. I don't know.
    Some people don’t talk about coaches or clinics because they’re afraid their kids will have to compete with yours. Welcome to TB!

    Others treat it like a good fishing spot and want it a secret. Ask parents of older TB players or with kids in college. They won’t keep everything so hush-hush.
    Relax and enjoy the ride

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  7. #45
    I can talk softball all day Lobster Birch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluggers View Post
    The drill to do is a walk through. The walk through is probably *THE* most important drill she will ever learn. My DD did this drill from 12YOA until she graduated from college. She probably did the drill 100,000 times over her career. Osterman was doing the drill when she played in the pros.

    Have her start three steps behind the rubber, walk forward, step on the rubber and throw. After she throws, tell her to keep her right foot off the ground until the catcher throws the ball back to her.

    Attached is a picture of your DD...so, she stops at this position with her right foot off the ground and waits for the ball to get back. She'll get the drill pretty fast. The first few times she does the drill will be a hoot. Enjoy it.

    Amanda Scarborough graciously made the video specifically for us here at DFP explaining the walk through drill. Spend a few minutes with her watching the drill.
    Isn't this also an example of Hello Elbow or do I not fully understand what that is?

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    Super Moderator sluggers's Avatar
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    Birch, I posted to show the drill, not pitching mechanics.

    Amanda does a "fakey" HE. You see this a lot in older, (sorry Amanda) pitchers. . A pitcher will do an IR release and follow through, and then roll the arm over and finish in an L.

    Amanda's super slowmo video shows the fakey HE in its full glory.

    How does a fakey develop? If a kid has an HE teacher, the kid will develop IR on her own as she progresses (like my DD). There is simply no way to get good speed and good accuracy without IR. To shut the PC (or Daddy, as in my case) up, the kid develops a falsey finish.

    With advanced pitcher, if you see the HE, either she is doing a fakey or is throwing a change.

    Amanda has done excellent videos. So, just ignore the HE finish and look at the rest of the video.
    Last edited by sluggers; 07-11-2018 at 06:53 PM.
    Ray

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  10. #47
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball Rocketech1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OsDad View Post
    It looks like most of the advice has been to leave her alone for now, outside of some small things at first.
    I sort of disagree with the concept "leave her alone for now". If she has a love for pitching and wants to excel at it, she will really enjoy and improve with a quality instructor and game plan to get better. I don't think pitching is a position you can dabble in, even at the rec level. Oklahoma City will have many young pitchers (same age as your DD) that will be working hard on their mechanics and improving exponentially the first few years and if your DD wants to play travel ball now is the time to make the investment in time and money. My DD started at 7yo and loved practicing so she and I would pitch 3 or 4 days a week supplemented with weekly pitching lessons and after a few years scaled down to twice a month. We felt that for her to be an above average pitcher and get playing time in the circle, this was the minimum she needed to do to stay competitive in our area.

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    Here is the super slo-mo of Amanda's IR delivery with the fakey HE.

    Classic IR delivery...ball on top of hand at 9, palm down after release. Then, she pulls it up to an HE position.

    via GIPHY



    For a lot of the older pitchers, you have to watch game videos to see how they pitch.

    Finch's instrutional videos show a true HE delivery, but she threw IR in games. Same thing with Lisa Fernandez...she shows HE in some of her videos, but her game videos are a different story.
    Last edited by sluggers; 07-11-2018 at 07:12 PM.
    Ray

    Every softball parent has a chef's knife and a hockey mask in the trunk of the car.

  13. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobster Birch View Post
    Isn't this also an example of Hello Elbow or do I not fully understand what that is?
    I think the take away from this is... once you have released the ball, it doesn't really matter what you do with your elbow... or any other part of you arm for that matter.

  14. #50
    Softball Junkie Hillhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluggers View Post
    Birch, I posted to show the drill, not pitching mechanics.

    Amanda does a "fakey" HE. You see this a lot in older, (sorry Amanda) pitchers. . A pitcher will do an IR release and follow through, and then roll the arm over and finish in an L.

    Amanda's super slowmo video shows the fakey HE in its full glory.

    How does a fakey develop? If a kid has an HE teacher, the kid will develop IR on her own as she progresses (like my DD). There is simply no way to get good speed and good accuracy without IR. To shut the PC (or Daddy, as in my case) up, the kid develops a falsey finish.

    With advanced pitcher, if you see the HE, either she is doing a fakey or is throwing a change.

    Amanda has done excellent videos. So, just ignore the HE finish and look at the rest of the video.
    Ray, I agree. Amanda is one, Finch is another who do the "fakey" HE finish. My concern is that some of the mechanics that get changed to end up in the "HE" position can have an effect on the rest of the motion. In other words, it takes someone with fine tuned mechanics to throw with "IR" and then fake the HE ending. The majority of people I see are willing to sacrifice the mechanics just to get into that all important HE finish that gets engraved into their heads. I'm sure I'm no different than other PC's who routinely get a student (or usually the dad) who says "I want my daughter to learn a riseball from YOU but we are happy with the other coach we see. However, despite this coach's best efforts, she cannot get over the hurdle for the rise." Then it comes tough love time when I say that doing what you're doing is going to prevent a rise. I cannot help you. If you maintain your mechanics as is, going forward, it will be impossible to put back spin on a ball for a rise. It's not my rule.. I didn't invent the pitch or hold a patent on it!!! They're asking me to put lipstick on a pig. And this is a very tough conversation because I don't want to insult their coach, but I am also not going to mislead them and tell them l can do what they are asking. There are ways to cheat on a drop. Ways to cheat on a curve, etc. There's no cheating on a riseball, a real riseball... not the bullet spin thrown high that Michele Smith likes to rave about on ESPN. It can be a very tough thing to hear when she has been the HS champ and believes her HS career will get her a UCLA offer.

    Bill

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