Riseball, changing the axis

In viewing a bunch of the slowmotion pitches from the WCWS, it's hard not to notice all the bulletspun riseballs. So it got me to thinking dd could probably throw this without much work. Just work on feathering the release of a IR fastball, get the nose up. 3 weeks in and she can throw this very consistently. It has a different look than her other pitches and hopefully will work for a good waste pitch for now. Now, I'd like to start working on getting the axis turned to get "some" backspin. From where she is now, how would be the best way to approach this?

My daughter can throw a bullet spin rise and it does move significantly differently than her 12/6 fastball. With that being said, it isn't a great pitch IMHO as she doesn't throw it with enough velocity to be overpowering. She throws 12/6 fastball, bullet spin rise and peel drop all in the mid 50's. She also is working on a "true" 6/12 riseball but has struggled with velocity and control of that pitch.
I think you'll find it difficult to tilt the axis on a bullet spin rise too much. IMO she should just play catch throwing it until she sees the spin she wants and then try to incorporate that release into a full motion pitch. I think she may have some success with what your describing by adjusting her body lean slightly back. IMO there are people with more experience around here that might have better ideas but I think that is what I would try first.

A true 12-6 rise is nearly impossible when going full speed. A bullet spin rise ball is an oxymoron. If it's not spinning backwards, it's not a rise.
Shaker, just focus on a snapping slice. Don't allow her palm or chest to close towards the catcher.

coach james said:

A bullet spin rise ball is an oxymoron. If it's not spinning backwards, it's not a rise.

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I agree with that and hesitate calling it a bullet spin rise even though you see it referred to a riseball over and over again. The truth is it's just a fastball with bullet spin that doesn't drop as much as a typical 12/6 fastball and for my daughter tails a bit. In any case, they are (2) different pitches and some distinction is necessary between a standard 12/6 and BS. Whatever terminology is used doesn't really matter as long as it's clear to the pitcher, catcher and coach. Often we just refer to it as "bullet".

Agreed. Bullet spin only drops with gravity. Where a fast ball will drop as it spins forward.
However, in my opinion bullet spin isn't a goal but rather an accident due to poor mechanical execution of whatever spin was attempted.
Bullet spin by definition is designed to stay straight and true...like a bullet spinning down the rifled barrel.
I don't think there's enough emphasis on correct spin axis by a lot of PC's...
In my experience, when a rise ball actually has bullet spin, it's typically a result of over rotating her torso or/and allowing I/R to ocure before release. Assuming your DD is right handed, don't let her rotate her torso past 45 degree angle and secondly keep her palm on 3rd. Finally, make sure her fingers are under the ball releasing evenly, the feather will promote bullet.

I'm always surprised by the number of people, coaches included, who will call any high pitch a rise, any outside pitch a curve, any inside pitch a screw and any low pitch a drop. Despite the fact they all spin the same.

Just yesterday, DD was throwing to a 14U team for practice. The coach asked her what pitches she threw and she said drop, curve, change. He asked if she ever threw a rise, which we are currently working on. It is in the bullpen, so to speak, as she either throws it 20 feet high or belt high and she hasn't gotten her velocity on it yet. DD says she has and the coach asked her to throw him a few. She told me she didn't really want to because she wasn't confident in it yet and I told her just to throw the ramp ball, which is basically just high heat thrown on a low to high angle, comes in about shoulder high to a batter.

She did and the coach asked her to throw about 10 more after the first. When she was done he came over and told her she had the best rise he had seen in years.

I thought DD was going to roll her eyes out of her head.

Edited to add: More to the original topic....the thumb will also cause a lot of spin problems with the rise for a lot of kids. Experiment with different placements of the thumb. My DD personally has an almost circle change grip to get backspin.

coach james said:

Agreed. Bullet spin only drops with gravity. Where a fast ball will drop as it spins forward.
However, in my opinion bullet spin isn't a goal but rather an accident due to poor mechanical execution of whatever spin was attempted.
Bullet spin by definition is designed to stay straight and true...like a bullet spinning down the rifled barrel.
I don't think there's enough emphasis on correct spin axis by a lot of PC's...
In my experience, when a rise ball actually has bullet spin, it's typically a result of over rotating her torso or/and allowing I/R to ocure before release. Assuming your DD is right handed, don't let her rotate her torso past 45 degree angle and secondly keep her palm on 3rd. Finally, make sure her fingers are under the ball releasing evenly, the feather will promote bullet.

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While we will both agree that 6/12 is optimal, I will argue that bullet spin does not fall at the rate of gravity if the axis is pointed upwards and you have a right handed pitcher. There is angular velocity, also known as the right hand thumb rule, in effect. This is the force you feel when you spin a bicycle wheel while holding onto the axle.

However, I would still rather a pitcher have true riseball rotation.

Is there a minimum speed that a pitcher should be throwing for a rise ball to work properly?

based upon your diagram,
lift that nose a little more,
and you have a nice curveball...

ive found the key to good riseball spin to be:
a) maintain a cup in the wrist at release
b) fingers toward 3b at release, RHP (fingers forward will produce bullet or curveball spin)

also to answer the effective speed question:
riseball effectivness relies upon spin rate as much as speed rate. (assuming axis is in the “good” range)
so, a 30+ spin rate can behave like a riseball at a lower velocity than a 20rps pitch will require.
that said, the general rule of thumb is 50mph.

Kcsftbl said:

Is there a minimum speed that a pitcher should be throwing for a rise ball to work properly?

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50 +/- for 12U
50+ for 14U and above

(Oops--just realized corlay already covered this....)