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Thread: How to fix the dreaded "Butt Out" disease?

  1. #31
    I can talk softball all day DNeeld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryan15 View Post
    the quicker we will have to admit to these athletes and their parents that they are screwed. That will drive them, us, and other experts to find a targeted solution.
    JRyan, I really appreciate your posts concerning quad dominance and glute activation. I'm sure you have done more research and reading on this topic than I have so I am wondering if you have any ideas for a solution.

    In my view this is almost a neurological problem and not one of strength or conditioning. Indeed, working to strengthen a muscle (the glute) that the brain does not properly use is counter productive. I haven't seen any particular point of technique or teaching that is flawed leading to an athlete being quad dominant so I think it has to be a neuro condition. The brain simply doesn't tell the glutes to activate when they should. The problem with this is it is a learned and developed behavior from the very earliest points of development, literally learning to walk. By the time this is identified in an athlete, they literally have years of "bad repetition" practice.

    Watching the various clips of your DD, you can see she has great form right up until the push. Then you can see that the push is all from the quad. The glute and core never activate. I'm just guessing, but I'm betting when she does squats she also has a "fall in the hole" feeling after a certain squat depth?

    Anyway, just some rambling thoughts from me for whatever that is worth. Do you have any ideas how to address this problem in a lasting manner?

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  3. #32
    I can talk softball all day jryan15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DNeeld View Post
    In my view this is almost a neurological problem and not one of strength or conditioning. Indeed, working to strengthen a muscle (the glute) that the brain does not properly use is counter productive. I haven't seen any particular point of technique or teaching that is flawed leading to an athlete being quad dominant so I think it has to be a neuro condition. The brain simply doesn't tell the glutes to activate when they should. The problem with this is it is a learned and developed behavior from the very earliest points of development, literally learning to walk. By the time this is identified in an athlete, they literally have years of "bad repetition" practice.
    Outstanding analysis! IMO you are exactly correct. Chong Xie's research on the hyperarch (discussed here) is specifically about correcting this neurological issue. The HA research is based the premise that the glutes respond to signals from the nervous system in the foot. Some people become specifically trained to ignore that signal.

    He discusses two modes of locomotion. "Walking mode" in which the glutes are shutoff. This mode can be visually observed by loose floppy feet in the transitional state. In the "active mode" glutes are turned on and respond to signals from the foot. This mode can be observed by the foot/shin becoming a rigid lever assembly. No floppy feet (refer to this gait analysis of LeBron, he is stuck in active mode even when walking). A side effect of people playing sports (running, cutting) in "walking mode" is that they are much more prone to sprained ankles.

    IMO the hyperarch workouts are a group B athletes best chance at crossing over to group A. Chong claims to have examples of athletes he's converted, but I don't recall seeing comprehensive before/after comparisons. If I had a time machine, I'd do a lot of stuff different, but one for sure would be to go back to 2013 and start working HA instead of the traditional based training that we did.

    Quote Originally Posted by DNeeld View Post
    Watching the various clips of your DD, you can see she has great form right up until the push. Then you can see that the push is all from the quad. The glute and core never activate. I'm just guessing, but I'm betting when she does squats she also has a "fall in the hole" feeling after a certain squat depth?
    Very astute. Yes, both myself and DD suffer a "fall in the hole" experience when squatting. The only time that I've felt a difference has been when "activating" my feet using HA and squating. Here are the problems that I have with HA.

    1. It is somewhat mysterious to learn to activate, intentionally so... I had to have personal discussions with Chong.
    2. Once activating, it is weak and needs development
    3. Sadly, during development it is easy to lose HA and not realized it thus wasting a lot of time and energy for no gain (in the case of DD, developing a turf toe injury)

    I hope to continue researching to find more efficient ways to train this. Unfortunately Chong has moved on to help upper tier group B and lower tier group A transition from DIII to DI prospects. Not much time to reconsider training lower group B athletes more efficiently.

  4. #33
    I can talk softball all day D Up's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryan15 View Post
    Thanks D Up. Sorry for long winded posts...

    I can tell you with the highest degree of certainty that the girl with bad hip extension (my DD) has worked on driving straight off of the rubber for years. I mean specifically trained and targeted work outs to try and eliminate that turning action. She (we've) worked closely in person and online with several of the top PC's on this site. I'm not disparaging those we've worked with, I consider them to be some of the foremost experts of pitching mechanics in the country. It is through their expertise (and a lot of prayer), that I've begun to discover that there is an issue for some athletes that goes beyond strength and mechanics training.

    I wish that I had the answers for how to truly fix this issue. As I mention in this post, given today's level of understanding, this is virtually an uncrossable filter. IMO kids with this issue never recover and will all wash out earlier their peers under the guise of not dedicated enough, didn't workout hard enough, long enough, or smart enough.

    I do think the hyperarch topic would get us there eventually but will take many more months to develop. Standard softball practice is a big inhibitor to using HA. Since basketball, track, football programs incorporate so much more sprinting, athletes can roll HA workouts into regular practice. For softball and baseball, there isn't much raw sprinting or explosive work and is very difficult to integrate HA into it. Basically working on HA adds another series of practices to squeeze between school, HS practice, TB practice, hitting and pitching lessons. Mix a life in there, and it's practically impossible.

    I've not resigned and am to begin talks with an expert at Marquette. I hope to discover a more efficient way to get to the other side of the filter, but right now most people have no awareness such a filter even exists...
    What do you do to train HA. We do some running on the toes to feel the bounce. I haven't dug deep into it as of yet.
    I am wondering what you are referring to when you say HA training. I know what HA is but I'm interested in what you mean by training

  5. #34
    I can talk softball all day D Up's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryan15 View Post
    I need to clarify. There are kids who have the glute issue and kids who don't. For those who don't, cracking the nut could really help a bleeding front leg issue. Furthermore for those who don't, all the commonly prescribed improvement actions in this forum are excellent advice and the right thing to do...

    However, for those who don't... They need special help. The regular prescriptions will likely just lead to dead ends and frustration.

    To add more detail on the topic. Pay attention to the rear (drive leg) hip in these clips.

    Here is a clip from a few years ago. We had worked with java and were continuing to work on explosive two step drills. This was a crude first go so definitely we cleaned some stuff up. The key in here is that this shows an athlete going full force trying to generate leg drive. For kids with glute issues, this is what it looks like. This is why they are inefficient sprinters... They do not generate thrust from the mid section.


    Here is a clip a year or so later. Working with a more upright posture. If I recall, we'd been advised out of the deeper waist bend. The rear hip extension is less glaring, but probably more due to posture. When you "feel" what's on the screen, there is no mid section thrust propelling her COG forward.


    For those who key in on her typically twisted drive foot. Here is a clip from another year later. No rear foot turn out... At the time, we were solely working on drive mechanic trying to get off the rubber by 3 o'clock. Lots and lots of strength gains had been made. I had key'd in on the glute issue but was not aware of how to view the rear hip as a way to diagnose. Looking now, it seems plain as day. I used to call it a rear leg pivot point, but describing and watching the rear hip is much easier.


    I hope that people can see and understand that she is not turning to get open. For her and many others, the appearance of turning action is a byproduct of a serious underlying issue. This deficiency has continued to haunt DD in pitching, sprinting, jumping, etc for all these years. She's worked incredibly HARD. Conditioning year around and weight lifting for 3 years now. At one point she was rocking out pistol squats for 10+ reps. IMO no amount of the standard workouts will resolve this kind of issue.

    At the moment, my goal is to create awareness, trying focus on better ways to see this pattern. Really I'd like to ID this pattern in sprinting since this is an issue that affects all athletes, not just pitchers. IMO the quicker we can recognize this rear hip extension issue, the quicker we will have to admit to these athletes and their parents that they are screwed. That will drive them, us, and other experts to find a targeted solution.
    In your opinion what are you looking for in the rear hip?

    Are you looking for the hip to pop forward sooner? What is it that you are seeing as a problem?

  6. #35
    I can talk softball all day D Up's Avatar
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    When you say HA do you simply mean on your toes? Ankle locked?

  7. #36
    I can talk softball all day jryan15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Up View Post
    When you say HA do you simply mean on your toes? Ankle locked?
    A lot of great questions, but it's probably better that I move this to the hyperarch thread... I'll update it in a few minutes.

    link to hyperarch thread

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    Softball Junkie abbygale's Avatar
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    This is an old thread but I didn't see any comments regarding a shoulder impingement which can prevent the body from working in the proper motion. If she is coming up the front side of the circle in a handshake position and maintaining that handshake position without letting the shoulder complex to rotate thru to the backside she will have to stick her butt out, hop sideways, in order to get her arm into a semi-coherent throwing position. That limiting of shoulder motion binds the body mechanics instead of letting them flow freely.

    Visualize a tire with a with a serious flat spot if that helps. Thump, thump, thump. Shoulders are supposed to be smooth. Bad things happen otherwise.

  9. #38
    I eat, sleep and breathe softball riseball's Avatar
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    If someone has a shoulder impingement why are they pitching and not getting treatment?

  10. #39
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    Probably because they haven't hurt themselves (yet) and no one has caught it, or realizes what they are seeing... Mine would probably still have it if Java hadn't pointed it out in a private video and hers was mild compared to some I see.

    And you're right. It took some serious PT to correct.

  11. #40
    I'm a fan Cornbread's Avatar
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    How do you diagnose the shoulder impingement? Any drill for detection?

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