How to fix the dreaded "Butt Out" disease?

jryan15 said:

IMO a lot of kids suffer a butt out condition due to an issue with their drive mechanic. Kids who have good glute usage will go from the "k" (bent rear hip) to reverse "k" (extended rear hip) position naturally. Kids who do not have good glute usage will drive from the rubber using primarily quads and calves (late push pattern). These kids will tend to end up in a butt out condition due to their rear hip not fully extending during drive from rubber.

Secondary effects of this are lack of mid section propulsion not yielding good weight transfer into plant, lack of propulsion forces pitcher to reach out with front leg, late push pattern from leg/calf after they start to close will cause the rear end to kick-out even more.

Late rear hip extension is a symptom which seems to be a result of the dragging rear leg. It is easy for this issue to be masked by a good front foot plant and cracking the nut which will result in a tall posture at release even though they were butt out during the important part of the drive phase.

Check out how early Tatum Edwards' rear hip extends (great clip knightsb!). She is driving from the middle out.

Good rear hip extension vs. Bad rear hip extension (resulting in butt out)

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jryan15 said:

IMO a lot of kids suffer a butt out condition due to an issue with their drive mechanic. Kids who have good glute usage will go from the "k" (bent rear hip) to reverse "k" (extended rear hip) position naturally. Kids who do not have good glute usage will drive from the rubber using primarily quads and calves (late push pattern). These kids will tend to end up in a butt out condition due to their rear hip not fully extending during drive from rubber.

Secondary effects of this are lack of mid section propulsion not yielding good weight transfer into plant, lack of propulsion forces pitcher to reach out with front leg, late push pattern from leg/calf after they start to close will cause the rear end to kick-out even more.

Late rear hip extension is a symptom which seems to be a result of the dragging rear leg. It is easy for this issue to be masked by a good front foot plant and cracking the nut which will result in a tall posture at release even though they were butt out during the important part of the drive phase.

Check out how early Tatum Edwards' rear hip extends (great clip knightsb!). She is driving from the middle out.

Good rear hip extension vs. Bad rear hip extension (resulting in butt out)

Click to expand...

jryan15 said:

the quicker we will have to admit to these athletes and their parents that they are screwed. That will drive them, us, and other experts to find a targeted solution.

Click to expand...

DNeeld said:

In my view this is almost a neurological problem and not one of strength or conditioning. Indeed, working to strengthen a muscle (the glute) that the brain does not properly use is counter productive. I haven't seen any particular point of technique or teaching that is flawed leading to an athlete being quad dominant so I think it has to be a neuro condition. The brain simply doesn't tell the glutes to activate when they should. The problem with this is it is a learned and developed behavior from the very earliest points of development, literally learning to walk. By the time this is identified in an athlete, they literally have years of "bad repetition" practice.

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DNeeld said:

Watching the various clips of your DD, you can see she has great form right up until the push. Then you can see that the push is all from the quad. The glute and core never activate. I'm just guessing, but I'm betting when she does squats she also has a "fall in the hole" feeling after a certain squat depth?

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jryan15 said:

Thanks D Up. Sorry for long winded posts...

I can tell you with the highest degree of certainty that the girl with bad hip extension (my DD) has worked on driving straight off of the rubber for years. I mean specifically trained and targeted work outs to try and eliminate that turning action. She (we've) worked closely in person and online with several of the top PC's on this site. I'm not disparaging those we've worked with, I consider them to be some of the foremost experts of pitching mechanics in the country. It is through their expertise (and a lot of prayer), that I've begun to discover that there is an issue for some athletes that goes beyond strength and mechanics training.

I wish that I had the answers for how to truly fix this issue. As I mention in this post, given today's level of understanding, this is virtually an uncrossable filter. IMO kids with this issue never recover and will all wash out earlier their peers under the guise of not dedicated enough, didn't workout hard enough, long enough, or smart enough.

I do think the hyperarch topic would get us there eventually but will take many more months to develop. Standard softball practice is a big inhibitor to using HA. Since basketball, track, football programs incorporate so much more sprinting, athletes can roll HA workouts into regular practice. For softball and baseball, there isn't much raw sprinting or explosive work and is very difficult to integrate HA into it. Basically working on HA adds another series of practices to squeeze between school, HS practice, TB practice, hitting and pitching lessons. Mix a life in there, and it's practically impossible.

I've not resigned and am to begin talks with an expert at Marquette. I hope to discover a more efficient way to get to the other side of the filter, but right now most people have no awareness such a filter even exists...

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jryan15 said:

I need to clarify. There are kids who have the glute issue and kids who don't. For those who don't, cracking the nut could really help a bleeding front leg issue. Furthermore for those who don't, all the commonly prescribed improvement actions in this forum are excellent advice and the right thing to do...

However, for those who don't... They need special help. The regular prescriptions will likely just lead to dead ends and frustration.

To add more detail on the topic. Pay attention to the rear (drive leg) hip in these clips.

Here is a clip from a few years ago. We had worked with java and were continuing to work on explosive two step drills. This was a crude first go so definitely we cleaned some stuff up. The key in here is that this shows an athlete going full force trying to generate leg drive. For kids with glute issues, this is what it looks like. This is why they are inefficient sprinters... They do not generate thrust from the mid section.

Here is a clip a year or so later. Working with a more upright posture. If I recall, we'd been advised out of the deeper waist bend. The rear hip extension is less glaring, but probably more due to posture. When you "feel" what's on the screen, there is no mid section thrust propelling her COG forward.

For those who key in on her typically twisted drive foot. Here is a clip from another year later. No rear foot turn out... At the time, we were solely working on drive mechanic trying to get off the rubber by 3 o'clock. Lots and lots of strength gains had been made. I had key'd in on the glute issue but was not aware of how to view the rear hip as a way to diagnose. Looking now, it seems plain as day. I used to call it a rear leg pivot point, but describing and watching the rear hip is much easier.

I hope that people can see and understand that she is not turning to get open. For her and many others, the appearance of turning action is a byproduct of a serious underlying issue. This deficiency has continued to haunt DD in pitching, sprinting, jumping, etc for all these years. She's worked incredibly HARD. Conditioning year around and weight lifting for 3 years now. At one point she was rocking out pistol squats for 10+ reps. IMO no amount of the standard workouts will resolve this kind of issue.

At the moment, my goal is to create awareness, trying focus on better ways to see this pattern. Really I'd like to ID this pattern in sprinting since this is an issue that affects all athletes, not just pitchers. IMO the quicker we can recognize this rear hip extension issue, the quicker we will have to admit to these athletes and their parents that they are screwed. That will drive them, us, and other experts to find a targeted solution.

Click to expand...