Drop vs Fastball

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Jul 4, 2012
329
18
I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is between a fastball thrown with IR (12 -6 spin) and a drop? Sluggers mentioned that softball folks in the know see the difference.

Unless the pitcher changes spin, I can't see how the two pitches are any different. Is that the goal? Only spin the FB at 18 RPS and get the drop to 25 RPS or better? If so, how do you do that "on purpose"?

Now, I obviously agree that a FB thrown with corkscrew spin is different than a drop with downward spin.
 

shaker1

Softball Junkie
Dec 4, 2014
894
18
On a bucket
I would like to see the difference in speed vs spin while working on the drop or any other pitch for that matter. If the focus is spin, maybe the ball is slower, but it has more spin, more bite.
 
Jun 19, 2013
753
28
I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is between a fastball thrown with IR (12 -6 spin) and a drop? Sluggers mentioned that softball folks in the know see the difference.

Unless the pitcher changes spin, I can't see how the two pitches are any different. Is that the goal? Only spin the FB at 18 RPS and get the drop to 25 RPS or better? If so, how do you do that "on purpose"?

Now, I obviously agree that a FB thrown with corkscrew spin is different than a drop with downward spin.

It has been our personal experience (and I think many have had similar experience from being on this site for a few years now) that a typical I/R fastball doesn't have, or doesn't start out with, actual 12/6 spin without some time and work that it naturally is more of an 11/5 initially. With work you can figure out how to shift it to more 12/6. And I THINK what I've learned from watching others and from on here is that without pretty good 12/6 and a good fast spin rate that you won't really see the sharp drop you are hoping to see for drop movement. When my DD wants to throw her fastest pitch it is her regular I/R mechanics (which in last year is getting closer to 12/6 than it used to be without even focusing on it). When she wants to throw a drop she shifts her grip, slightly shortens her stride a few inches and ends taller and with a slight shoulder raise and that usually ends up being 12/6 with a more pronounced late break that it tough to catch for sure. But the drop is her most inconsistent pitch for sure so take my advice for the difference with a grain of salt and glean from everyone else on here too.
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
Any pitch thrown with 12-6 +/- spin is by definition a drop. How effective it may be depends on other factors including RPS. How it is thrown is a matter of style, not an absolute. A fastball is simply a pitchers fastest pitch, it is not defined by spin.
 
Jul 4, 2012
329
18
I would like to see the difference in speed vs spin while working on the drop or any other pitch for that matter. If the focus is spin, maybe the ball is slower, but it has more spin, more bite.

A couple of years ago, Riseball made a post about the top of the line radar guns reading top speed out of the hand and a slower later speed and that the difference in the two readings related to spin rate. Higher the speed difference the higher the spin rate. Makes sense. We have a RevFire but not one of those good guns, but it goes to your question.
 

shaker1

Softball Junkie
Dec 4, 2014
894
18
On a bucket
A couple of years ago, Riseball made a post about the top of the line radar guns reading top speed out of the hand and a slower later speed and that the difference in the two readings related to spin rate. Higher the speed difference the higher the spin rate. Makes sense. We have a RevFire but not one of those good guns, but it goes to your question.

Is there a point where speed nullifies spin? Here's a ESPN article on speed and spin from 2015.
https://m.mlb.com/news/article/160896926/statcast-spin-rate-compared-to-velocity/
 
Last edited:
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Is there a point where speed nullifies spin? Here's a ESPN article on speed and spin from 2015.
https://m.mlb.com/news/article/160896926/statcast-spin-rate-compared-to-velocity/

Yes--for sure. To achieve the same arc with increased speed, I believe you have to increase RPS. Watch some video of guys like Folkard throwing a drop. Some get crazy movement at around 80 MPH. A few years ago I asked [MENTION=674]Hillhouse[/MENTION] about how to increase break. As I recall, he suggested snapping harder at release. He'd need to verify, but I believe he said you feel the snap at the elbow.

I can feel this difference and wonder what it is to "snap" harder. Someone asked about getting elbow extension in a an earlier thread. At the time and even to some degree now, I don't believe this should be a goal--at least when first learning to throw underhand. However, to get more RPS, I wonder if there is a slight extension that occurs at release to get more spin. Or, maybe the elbow is flexing just a touch more prior to release and extending a bit at release?
 
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sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
Willie Mays, who may have been the greatest baseball player ever, was hitting against Bob Gibson. Mays struck out. The coach asked Mays why he and the whole team was struggling during the game. Willie, "Didn't you notice? That is Mr. Gibson on the mound."

The point? Bob Gibson was not average pitcher. He was way, way above averge.

Put an average pitcher on the mound, and Willie Mays will take the guy yard. Put a good pitcher on the mound, and even the best of the best hitters will struggle.

Moral of story: Good pitchers are *NOT* average. They are way, way above average. They have excellent control, at least one excellent breaking pitch, and good speed. Look at MLB pitching. Look at NCAA pitchers. It is the same formula, over and over and over again.

Take a look at this reference:

https://www.revfire.com/files/2011_NFCA_Showcase_RevFire_Spin_Performance.pdf

Revfire went to the NFCA showcase. They had HS age pitchers throw. These were kids hoping to pitch in college. RevFire measured their spin rate.

If you look at drop balls, 140 kids threw their "drop" with a spin of under 18RPS. There were 30 pitchers who threw the drop with an RPS over 20. There were only 9 kids with RPS over 24.

So, "average" is 18RPS and less.

80% of the kids are throwing drop balls with a spin of 18RPS. Less than 5% of the pitchers throw with more than 23RPS spin. Only 1% of the kids had an RPS of 25.

Back to basics: Batters who see the same pitches over and over and over again get very good at hitting those pitches. It does not matter whether the pitch is a drop, rise, curve, change, etc...the more they see of a pitch, the better they get at hitting they get at hitting it.

In the drop ball world, the batters are seeing kids throwing 18RPS and less drop balls all the time. There is nothing unusual or unique about them. Batters who have played 100+ games a season are going to murder 18RPS drop balls.

But, how about good batter vs. a 25RPS drop ball? Only 1% of the pitchers have a 25 RPS drop. It is possible that the batter is facing a pitch she may have never seen before in her life.

The ball is going to be 2 to 3 inches off where tthe batter expects drop to be. The batter starts to hesitate, and "second guesses" her swings. She starts taking strikes. She starts trying to "just make contact"...which is perfectly OK with the pitcher.
 
Last edited:
May 30, 2013
1,442
83
Binghamton, NY
Only 1% of the pitchers have a 25 RPS drop. It is possible that the batter is facing a pitch she may have never seen before in her life.

to add to Sluggers analysis,
I will say:

From my experience in 16U travel ball,
I'd estimate only 10% of HS-age pitchers out there throw at least 2 pitches with noticeably differing spin axis.
(excluding change ups)

There are a lot of flame-throwers out there, but very few have a good variety of spins.
Most are just spotting the same-spinning ball, coupled with a seldom-used change-up.

Also, regarding drop ball RPS:
From what I have learned about throwing this pitch, the thumb is a "spin-killer",
and is probably the biggest reason kids can't seem to get over that 16-18RPS hump with this pitch.
Slo-mo of great drop ball pitchers show that the thumb comes off the ball early, and doesn't hang-on through release.
I think that is the key.
 
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Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
Adding even more to sluggers post: in the data he cited we do not know how many actual drop balls were thrown. Just that 140 kids threw a pitch that was supposed to be a drop. Some may have been chucking bullet spin, so the actual number of true drops 12-6 +/- over 18rps is most certainly less.
 

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