Riseball - ball rotation axis

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Jul 7, 2016
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I read that the most optimal axis for a rise ball is moving 12-6 with "backspin" - viewing the pitch from pitcher to catcher, the ball is rotating clockwise.
But watching some videos in slow motion, the axis is definitely not 12-6. in some cases it looks like it is moving way off that, even counter-clockwise (catcher's view) which seems to defy Magnus effect, but still rises...
Interested to know if there are other rise techniques that don't support the 12-6 rationale..?
Thx
 
Nov 3, 2012
480
16
Lets qualify this, the riseball is a tough pitch to throw. Yes, Ideally you want 12-6 spin with back spin. That's the perfect riseball when it happens, but most pitchers don't get that consistently, but it jumps when you get it, but rare. What you see more often is a 11-5 or 1 to 7 spin (with backspin). This is good and still very effective, and sometimes moves a bit left or right. What happens a lot, is a pitcher can throw a rise ball hard at the right angle, get some resemblance to back spin or bullet spin, but still be somewhat effective. It doesn't jump as much and is a little more dangerous and has less margin of error, but this is still thrown a lot. But what you also see is a pitcher throw a fastball hard but still has topspin but is thrown high or above the strike zone. This pitch can work, but its not a riseball and wont be as effective as a riseball. Some people think this is riseball, but its not.
 
May 17, 2012
2,804
113
I can count the number of pitchers on one hand that I have seen throw a legit 12-6 riseball. Most are bullet spin high fastballs which is still an effective pitch.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
Very few pitchers throw a true rise. Kelly Barnhill does throw a true rise. Pitchers that do throw a true rise get something like 2-8 or 1-7 spin. A true rise is very, very difficult to throw and very difficult to hit.

Many pitchers throw a bullet spin pitch which they call a rise. The bullet spin has the axis of rotation pointed toward the catcher.

The vast majority of pitchers simply throw a high fastball and call it a rise.

A little physics: Even the best riseball does not "rise". The ball never goes above the initial trajectory of the pitch. However, it "falls less" than other pitches.

So:

1) A riseball with 1-7 spin "falls less" than a pitch with 2-8 spin.
2) A pitch with 2-8 spin falls less than a pitch with bullet spin.
3) A pitch with bullet spin falls less than a pitch with top spin.
4) A pitch with top spin at 12 RPS falls less than a top spin pitch at 28 RPS.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Please ignore seam orientation and yaw. They vary from person to person.


6-12 (Rare but nasty)

6-12.JPG


7-1 (Yaw varies/Still pretty uncommon)

7-1YB.JPG

8-2/Crise (Yaw varies)
8-2.JPG


Nose up (Pretty typical)

NoseUP.JPG


Bullet (Common)

Bullet.JPG
 
Last edited:
May 30, 2013
1,442
83
Binghamton, NY
i think why ken's first 2 examples are rare is because most pitchers are too impatient to deal with the at least initial velocity drop you will experience in achieving "optimal" spin.

DD gets Kens first 2 examples with varying yaw.
The speed drop is significant.
after 10 months of working on this pitch,
she is still -5mph slower than her drop.
makes a very nice off-speed that hovers between drop and change, though!

I also think that speed is an equalizer with regard to the rise.
If yoh are throwing 60+, you can be more effective with less than optimal spin axis and/or rate.
BUT if you throw 60+ with 12-6 axis and 25+ rps? UN-HITTABLE!!!

At the 16U level in the northeast region, I do see quite a lot of what I call "big dot" riseballs.
a bit different than kens common bullet ball where the axis is spinning about the "narrows" as its coming toward the batter, big dot is spinning about the smooth side of the ball. It seems to be effective, at speeds of 60+.
(Taran Alvelo - Washington Huskies is the best example of this I can think
of, off the top of my head...)
 
Last edited:
Jun 19, 2013
753
28
Please ignore seam orientation and yaw. They vary from person to person.


6-12 (Rare but nasty)

View attachment 12293


7-1 (Yaw varies/Still pretty uncommon)

View attachment 12294

8-2/Crise (Yaw varies)
View attachment 12295


Nose up (Pretty typical)

View attachment 12297


Bullet (Common)

View attachment 12298

I love that you took the time to put that together. This site has needed this!! I think DD used to have 7-1 and can usually find it during practice, but during games I see more bullet :(

However it is really hard for me to concede and actually believe that what I am seeing is just not falling as fast - she starts low and releases around her mid thigh and then it ends up at the batter's chest or if gets away from her maybe at the chin. So is that really just not falling as fast - or is it actually thrown with upward trajectory??
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
I love that you took the time to put that together. This site has needed this!! I think DD used to have 7-1 and can usually find it during practice, but during games I see more bullet :(

However it is really hard for me to concede and actually believe that what I am seeing is just not falling as fast - she starts low and releases around her mid thigh and then it ends up at the batter's chest or if gets away from her maybe at the chin. So is that really just not falling as fast - or is it actually thrown with upward trajectory??

In practice, her's is one of the best I've seen (my little one is catching up though!)
 

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