Riseball - ball rotation axis

Ken B · Oct 17, 2017

I'd guess that most pitches have a similar initial trajectory. Even a low rise might look just like the drop ball that just hit the dirt. When you have a decent drop, rise and change--your tools compliment/compound the effectiveness of each other. A big thank you to [MENTION=8694]javasource[/MENTION] and his student for providing this awesome example:

I'm hoping that FF has more of this stuff to help people see just how deceptive good pitches can be with hard work and dedication.

oriole · Oct 18, 2017

My daughter works with Java and is very close to a 12-6 rise after 9 months of work on it. Ive learned that it takes tremendous discipline to "cup the ball" and hold that cup through the release at full motion. Until she could work through that concept all of her rise balls would turn into bulletspin.

sluggers · Oct 18, 2017

Ken B said:
Please ignore seam orientation and yaw. They vary from person to person.

View attachment 12298

Nicely done! Thanks!

sluggers · Oct 18, 2017

Ken B said:
I'd guess that most pitches have a similar initial trajectory. Even a low rise might look just like the drop ball that just hit the dirt. When you have a decent drop, rise and change--your tools compliment/compound the effectiveness of each other.

I'm hoping that FF has more of this stuff to help people see just how deceptive good pitches can be with hard work and dedication.

Another great visual aid. Thanks again!

ArmyStrong · Oct 18, 2017

corlay said:
i think why ken's first 2 examples are rare is because most pitchers are too impatient to deal with the at least initial velocity drop you will experience in achieving "optimal" spin.

DD gets Kens first 2 examples with varying yaw.
The speed drop is significant.
after 10 months of working on this pitch,
she is still -5mph slower than her drop.
makes a very nice off-speed that hovers between drop and change, though!

I also think that speed is an equalizer with regard to the rise.
If yoh are throwing 60+, you can be more effective with less than optimal spin axis and/or rate.
BUT if you throw 60+ with 12-6 axis and 25+ rps? UN-HITTABLE!!!

At the 16U level in the northeast region, I do see quite a lot of what I call "big dot" riseballs.
a bit different than kens common bullet ball where the axis is spinning about the "narrows" as its coming toward the batter, big dot is spinning about the smooth side of the ball. It seems to be effective, at speeds of 60+.
(Taran Alvelo - Washington Huskies is the best example of this I can think
of, off the top of my head...)

Great follow up to Ken's great post. Almost relieved that DD is seeing the same challenges. When throwing nice and easy, my DD can throw spins like the first example. As she tries to throw harder, I see the 7-1 yaw (second example). As she throws her hardest "riseball" I see the Crise (third example). The Crise she throws is still about 5 mph slower than her drop ball. As a 13YO, her Crise is still not fast enough to be effective at this time.

Ken B · Oct 18, 2017

sluggers said:
Another great visual aid. Thanks again!

Glad to post it, but see I need to go back and make sure JS gets credit for posting great stuff like this on his YouTube channel!

ArmyStrong said:
As a 13YO, her Crise is still not fast enough to be effective at this time.

Can she spot it? If she can, I'd ask her to work it in as appropriate and see what she gets. If she's in the 50+/- range, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...

oriole said:
My daughter works with Java and is very close to a 12-6 rise after 9 months of work on it. Ive learned that it takes tremendous discipline to "cup the ball" and hold that cup through the release at full motion. Until she could work through that concept all of her rise balls would turn into bulletspin.

/\/\/\THIS!!!/\/\/\

If nothing else, I hope folks take this key point away from this thread. It amazes me how much misguided instruction there is out there about the rise. Some is REALLY bad. Learning a decent grip, getting the feel of snapping the fingertips under the ball using a cupped hand and evaluating spin while amping up the effort... That's the ticket. Thousands of reps with a spinner or ball on a stick can't replicate what it takes to throw a decent rise.

corlay · Oct 18, 2017

Ken B said:
Can she spot it? If she can, I'd ask her to work it in as appropriate and see what she gets. If she's in the 50+/- range, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...

agree.

DD rise is at that 50-51 range with 24-26rps, and she throws it in games.
Uses it like an off-speed, and it's pretty effective.
If thrown with good axis, the "float" aspect of this pitch freezes a lot of batters,
especially when thrown in combination with a Drop.
DD misses her Drop too low often, but will then follow with a "low rise" at the thighs, and batters will take this strike 75%-80% of the time,
largely because of the setup.
DD struggles to spot the Rise high in the zone, which is weird.
Part of Winter's work is to figure out how to spot it low (Level 01) AND high (Level 2) for strikes.

Ken B · Oct 18, 2017

Really good thread on the RB:
https://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/22621-chelsea-wilkinson.html

Ken B · Oct 21, 2017

Walljasper:

shaker1 · Oct 21, 2017

Ken B said:
Walljasper:

Nice spin rate, I counted 14 revs, Parker and Barnhill are around 10.

Riseball - ball rotation axis

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