Preparing for the “Hello Elbow” vs. IR Discussions

My rec league hosts Fall pitching clinics, and our division (3rd grade) will begin kid pitch ½ way through the Spring’18 season. Based on what I saw last winter, the instructors (former D1 pitchers) were doing the wrist-snaps and follow-through emphasis that indicated HE mechanics. (I posted a separate thread looking for advice on how to best determine their teaching style).

Below is a rough summary of the usual pros/cons I’ve seen used, and tried to describe my current situation as best I could, with the disclaimer that I may have left out/forgotten/glossed over things to avoid spending all day drafting this post. So here’s my summary and pros/cons of the IR/HE dilemma:

1. I understand IR is a more natural, efficient movement for pitching, but I’ve also seen it referenced to as being safer. But when I searched the threads trying to find examples, such as “HE mechanics can lead to “x” types of injuries”, or “HE increases the stress on [elbow / wrist / shoulder joint]”, I couldn’t find anything resembling concrete evidence (or even just a detailed explanation).
2. IR is used by the vast majority of college pitchers, and likely all NPF and Olympic pitchers
3. HE mechanics may be more accurate at first, but the ceiling for speed is around 50-55mph
4. These are 3rd graders in a rec league. There will likely be girls who want to try pitching, and should be given the chance, but will not be looking to pursue TB or a starting spot on the varsity roster, due to a variety of factors (skills, drive/desire, other interests, etc.).
5. Cloning only works for sheep. As HC I still need to develop catchers, rework throwing mechanics (thanks, Austin!), and further ingrain proper hitting mechanics. And do it in only 90 mins of practice each week. Add in pitching, and I'm beginning to think it’s a losing battle.
6. I’m not a PC. I’m still trying to teach myself (and way behind on my progress and practice time), but my 6th grader picked up (what I think is) the correct motion fairly easily, and my 3rd grader understands the basics (pull the ball, brush, natural follow through), so I think I could do a decent enough job steering those interested down the right path with the BM and Java drills.
7. There are Tincher-certified coaches in my area, but I would expect the cost for comparable amounts of instruction to be higher than the ~$125 fee for the ~6 week pitching clinics offered by my league. (Note: For now, the Tincher system is as close a match to the IR methods shown on DFP as I could find in the NoVa area. I’m way too new to this process to speculate if a side-by-side analysis of the Tincher method with those taught by the Pauly’s, BM, or Java would result in a 85%, 95%, or 99% match).

Question 1: I’m not sure #'s 2 and 3 are valid selling points for the parents and players in #4. The “safety” issue reference in #1 would give me the strongest argument/justification to either just stick with a team-based DIY approach (#6), or suggest #7 as a (more expensive) alternative. But I can’t find evidence to support #1 (it’s safer). Have I been mis-interpreting what I thought was people’s concerns regarding the long-term effects of an HE delivery?

Question 2: Am I doing the girls a disservice by suggesting they try at least one round of the clinics to become familiar with the position and the level of practice success will likely require, and risk the "exposure" to HE, or is it possible to spend 15 minutes after a few practices, introduce drills like “lock-it-in”, maybe work with them over the winter (if time / space allows), and have them ready for kid-pitch by May of next year?

Question3: Might as well add one more - I've seen lots of posts about HE vs IR when it comes to their own daughters. Has anyone had success introducing IR at a rec-league, team level?

Sorry for the length of this post - thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide!

Gags

1) I don't think you make an argument for anything to be honest. Just show them IR. Rec league you don't need to sell a product as you are not really getting paid for it.

2) Would definitely try to get them to go to clinics. It will prove near impossible to try to teach someone to pitch while you are trying to teach others to hit, field, throw, ect.

3) Town i live in the rec league does pitching clinics where they teach the fundamentals of IR. Can't really use that term to a 8-9 YO but really doesn't matter what you call it at that age.

Side note maybe ask the local Tincher instructor if they would volunteer some time for your league. Works two fold, you'll get someone to help teach and they will have potential future students, so it works both ways. My DD goes to a Tincher PC and it is IR, they just call it "Fluid Dynamics", same thing though.

I have had these "discussions" more than a few times. I have found the best tactic is to get some to explain how the best of the best do it. More often than not the describe HE. I take my time and ask to explain in detail. Then I break out the tablet and start showing some videos and GIF's and asking them to help me understand what is happening in the video. I let them come to their own conclusions as they figure out that I know more than they may have realized. Of course it helps when I point out that one of the videos is my daughter. In situations as the OP described it is best to lead and not push.

riseball said:

Of course it helps when I point out that one of the videos is my daughter.

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This alone gives you credibility that I can't touch in a sea of all-knowing former DI/II/III pitchers!

Ken B said:

This alone gives you credibility that I can't touch in a sea of all-knowing former DI/II/III pitchers!

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Or better yet if you know the one giving pitching instruction was a former pitcher and you bring video of them...pitching IR and they did not even realize how they pitched. Always amazed that many of these coaches/instructor have never really spent a lot of time analyzing video especially of themselves in an attempt to learn how they pitch and how they could become better.

Seems like on the hitting side there is a lot more openness to do video analysis and really dissecting swings versus dissecting pitching motions

djcarter1966 said:

Always amazed that many of these coaches/instructor have never really spent a lot of time analyzing video especially of themselves in an attempt to learn how they pitch and how they could become better.

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I can only think of three former pitchers that I've spoken to who were somewhat open to studying, and even then they tended to drift off the path... The rest seem to be convinced that what they were taught BITD is the way it is and even with video evidence, there is little consideration that they could be wrong.

I sense such optimism in this thread.

Thanks riseball - thinking it through (and w/o a D1 pitcher among my existing progeny), a "lead, not push" mentality is probably the best course of action.

I suppose it's kinda like going in and telling your doc that you've just read about some new treatments on teh internets and would like him/her to check it out...

Ken B said:

I can only think of three former pitchers that I've spoken to who were somewhat open to studying, and even then they tended to drift off the path... The rest seem to be convinced that what they were taught BITD is the way it is and even with video evidence, there is little consideration that they could be wrong.

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We have recently dealt with a D1 pitcher who was trying to teach my DD her CU. She explained that the top of the hand had to lead down the back of the circle and it was released like a flip. When I asked if she would demonstrate so I could record it to see when the hand turned over. You could see that it was straight arm, ball leading like bowling mechanics (which you might expect with a CU with little whip) horseshoe grip released at the hip and the hand turned over much later. I showed her the videos of both of the pitches and even though we looked at them together and I stopped them and we looked at the moment of release she would not admit that was what was happening and insisted it was what she said she did and not what the video showed. So she wanted my DD to attempt to do the other motion she described and now what was happening in the videos. Just blew my mind.

You can lead a horse to water, but it's only the special horse that learns that sometimes there are better beverage choices than water.