Crowhopping, Barnhill, and Confessions of an Umpire

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Apr 17, 2012
806
18
Wi
I agree Barnhill crow hops/replants. I will say I see that "style" quite a bit these days. ASA defines a crow hop as replant prior to delivery. I thought comp or one of the other esteemed umps stated one of the governing bodies clarified that you can't have a replant without loss of contact with ground? I could be wrong but I thought I read that here.
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
It's illegal because the rules prohibit it.

Basically, a crow hop occurs when the pitcher pushes off the pitching rubber, her back foot loses contact with the ground, then it comes in contact with the ground and she pushes off again from that spot. So it's essentially like she gets to start two or three feet closer to the hitter than a pitcher who is pitching legally.

Many people use the term "crow hop" to also describe a leap, which is where both feet are also off the ground, but when the back foot lands it doesn't push off from the ground a second time. Think of a leap as what you would do to get across a small stream or over a branch that's in your way.

It's the second push-off that makes it a crow hop.

This could also be referred to as a "replant"
 
Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48


Interesting how he has both feet touching the pitching plate (albeit barely) and "only" gets to the front of the circle. There is another video of Folkard where he is allowed to start his stride foot behind the pitching plate (International rules?) and he gets an extra 2-3 feet of distance well past the front of the circle. I don't see a replant (an extra push towards home plate as he is only getting to the front of the circle like many D1 women pitchers).

Just wondering out loud that if we allowed the women to leap like is shown in the video (but not allow the stride foot to start well back off the pitching plate for a "running start") whether all of this nonsense about IPs and lack of enforcement would go away. Seems like a simple fix without having to change anything else about the women's game.

The alternative is hiring an extra umpire to ONLY watch the pitcher's foot work to make sure she is in compliance of the existing rules; but this would not be feasible for most games as they can barely afford one umpire in most leagues and tournaments.
 
Last edited:
Sep 10, 2013
603
0
Interesting how he has both feet touching the pitching plate (albeit barely) and "only" gets to the front of the circle. There is another video of Folkard where he is allowed to start his stride foot behind the pitching plate (International rules?) and he gets an extra 2-3 feet of distance well past the front of the circle. I don't see a replant (an extra push towards home plate as he is only getting to the front of the circle like many D1 women pitchers).

Just wondering out loud that if we allowed the women to leap like is shown in the video (but not allow the stride foot to start well back off the pitching plate for a "running start") whether all of this nonsense about IPs and lack of enforcement would go away. Seems like a simple fix without having to change anything else about the women's game.

The alternative is hiring an extra umpire to ONLY watch the pitcher's foot work to make sure she is in compliance of the existing rules; but this would not be feasible for most games as they can barely afford one umpire in most leagues and tournaments.

why is it that you always insist on changing the rules to allow skippies to become legal?
 
Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48
why is it that you always insist on changing the rules to allow skippies to become legal?

Look, it's a game. If the rules don't work correctly for a large portion of the playing population AND the governing bodies choose to not enforce the very rules they created than you need to revisit them to see if it's a good rule to begin with. When such a large group of players, many playing at the highest level possible, cannot be in compliance with the rules than there is more to the issue than "they are just cheaters". Otherwise, you will continue to piss and moan about all these illegal pitchers and discount any success they have, whether it's Barnhill, Abbott or Osterman. Many of us want to make this game better instead of labeling so many players as "illegal", which serves no purpose other than acting like a grumpy old man.
 
Apr 5, 2013
2,130
83
Back on the dirt...
17" is always 17" There is a reason the rule is written as it is. It doesnt need to be adjusted. It just needs to be enforced. Change the zone if you want to help the pitchers.

Changing the rules to allow a replant or leap changes the game.

JMHO
 
Sep 10, 2013
603
0
Look, it's a game. If the rules don't work correctly for a large portion of the playing population AND the governing bodies choose to not enforce the very rules they created than you need to revisit them to see if it's a good rule to begin with. When such a large group of players, many playing at the highest level possible, cannot be in compliance with the rules than there is more to the issue than "they are just cheaters". Otherwise, you will continue to piss and moan about all these illegal pitchers and discount any success they have, whether it's Barnhill, Abbott or Osterman. Many of us want to make this game better instead of labeling so many players as "illegal", which serves no purpose other than acting like a grumpy old man.

And what about those pitchers that ARE legal? Have you thought about them?

No, it's NOT nonsense. I have made sure that my DD was NOT ILLEGAL. If she was, I'd fix it. i follow the rules and so do many others.
What about them? Make them skippies? No sir. No way.

And it's NOT JUST A GAME. It's a principle that you take and use for the rest of your life.
Just because you CAN get away with it is not something i want to teach my DD for softball or for anything PAST softball.
 
Last edited:
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
Look, it's a game. If the rules don't work correctly for a large portion of the playing population AND the governing bodies choose to not enforce the very rules they created than you need to revisit them to see if it's a good rule to begin with. When such a large group of players, many playing at the highest level possible, cannot be in compliance with the rules than there is more to the issue than "they are just cheaters". Otherwise, you will continue to piss and moan about all these illegal pitchers and discount any success they have, whether it's Barnhill, Abbott or Osterman. Many of us want to make this game better instead of labeling so many players as "illegal", which serves no purpose other than acting like a grumpy old man.

The rules do work for most of the participants. It s not that some participants cannot comply. Supported by their enablers they choose not to comply. And now that a cheat like Barnhill is blatantly exploiting the issue with the enablers worshiping at her feet, things will only get worse.

The rule is NOT the problem. The problem is a lack of integrity that over time has found its way into the game. The antics this year at Florida and Auburn have made that abundantly clear. Yes, you can take the easy way out, change the rule and the issue will go away. However, the integrity problem will remain. Soon a new issue will arise, and the enablers will clamor to change yet another rule. The rule does NOT need to be changed. All that is needed is an overdue infusion of integrity into the game. You do not make the game better by arbitrarily mucking with the rules. You make the game better by maintaining the integrity through enforcement of the rules and holding those involved accountable.
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
A few years ago coaching TB I had a "new" pitcher on my team that had a significant replant. She was a decent pitcher and threw with more velocity than almost all my other pitchers. Unlike some of the examples posted on here she actually used the crow-hop as a crutch for a very weak, non-athletic drive. I began attempting to fix it and I received a huge push-back from the player and then the parents. The parents were so upset that they involved the pitching instructor to try and convince me it was legal. They didn't want to undo all the "progress" she had made since working with the PI. The instructor was actually teaching his pitchers to replant and had his own drills to encourage them to form the habit of replanting. After talking with the family and the instructor, I basically said that I would NOT pitch her in games until we were working together to minimize and ultimately eliminate her illegal replant. The player quit about a week later and went and played for another coach who either didn't know better or didn't care. LOL
She made varsity her freshman season and I assume that she is still using the same illegal pitch.

Now that Kelly Barnhill is the #1 pitcher in college softball with an obvious replant, how many pitchers parents will feel it necessary to "fix" their DD's illegal mechanics?
 

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