Riseball question

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May 9, 2015
263
18
West Virginia
How do you throw a rise on 3 different levels? She does it on occasion it but I don't think she has no idea how. We've tried, "aim lower" "back leg not front leg" and every other cue you can think of. I'm assuming it's release point but she struggles with releasing early and spinning it correctly. Any ideas?
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
Change your bullpen regimen and only work on the low rise. When working with Jake I used to put a water bottle in front of home plate as a reference point. Still use this technique with my RB pitchers. Once dialed in they can paint the bottom of the circle with the rise. I do the same thing with a drop. In bullpen we focus on throwing the pitch a full ball or more below the zone. On both pitches if the bottom of the zone is their reference point it is very easy to bring the ball up. This allows you to work the ladder on the rise and keep the drop at the bottom of the zone. A drop ball above the thigh is the definition of a flat and fat pitch. :)
 
May 9, 2015
263
18
West Virginia
So when you're working on a low rise is she focusing on aiming lower, releasing earlier? What's her mindset? It sounds elementary but I struggle with how do you throw a low rise. If it's a release point and she says she can't get under it back there (at that release point) what do you do or how do you work on it?
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
So when you're working on a low rise is she focusing on aiming lower, releasing earlier? What's her mindset? It sounds elementary but I struggle with how do you throw a low rise. If it's a release point and she says she can't get under it back there (at that release point) what do you do or how do you work on it?

Keep in mind that a low rise is not a different pitch, it is the same pitch thrown to a different location. Just like a backdoor curve is no different than any other curve. It just takes better mechanics to throw a low rise than one up in the zone.

Try getting the weight further back. Way back to an extreme. Past what would be considered "normal". Working on some aspects of pitching is like taking a shower. You don't turn the water on where you think it will be comfortable. Rather you crank to the hot side and then dial it back to where you need it to be.

It is not like you are consciously moving the release point back to get the pitch to come down. Getting the weight back is required to get the release point back. Getting the release point back is required to get under the ball to get the correct spin and to throw the ball low in the zone. You never really aim, just pick a spot and throw it. When picking a spot remember the line from the movie The Patriot - Aim small. Miss small. Don't throw at the water bottle throw at the cap.


ETA: I think folks like @Java will be quick to point out that when I mention moving the weight back what we are really doing is changing posture.
 
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May 9, 2015
263
18
West Virginia
Keep in mind that a low rise is not a different pitch, it is the same pitch thrown to a different location. Just like a backdoor curve is no different than any other curve. It just takes better mechanics to throw a low rise than one up in the zone.

Try getting the weight further back. Way back to an extreme. Past what would be considered "normal". Working on some aspects of pitching is like taking a shower. You don't turn the water on where you think it will be comfortable. Rather you crank to the hot side and then dial it back to where you need it to be.

It is not like you are consciously moving the release point back to get the pitch to come down. Getting the weight back is required to get the release point back. Getting the release point back is required to get under the ball to get the correct spin and to throw the ball low in the zone. You never really aim, just pick a spot and throw it. When picking a spot remember the line from the movie The Patriot - Aim small. Miss small. Don't throw at the water bottle throw at the cap.

Aha! That makes sense, many thanks for the help as always. BTW The Patriot is in my top 5 of all time. I also love the line, would you rather be ruled by 1 tyrant 3,000 miles away or 3,000 tyrants 1 mile away. Boy, did he nail that one lol
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
I really like Riseball's comment about "throwing for the cap".

My comment:

You can't tell a DD how to move the ball up, down, left or right by six inches. There isn't a vocabulary large enought to explain "how".

But, you can help come up with drills, ideas or games to help *her* learn how to do it.
 
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Oct 11, 2010
8,337
113
Chicago, IL
I go to other extreme and work back towards it. If the ball is too high, I want ball to hit before the plate then hit plate then slowly move up.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
I use the concept of spinning to a location rather than throwing to it... however the spin plays a pretty major part in lowering this pitch.... for example:

Bullety Ramp Balls... are not rise balls... however their two distinct spins produce different types of movement... so locating them in the zone effectively really becomes easier if you know what you are throwing.

Large-dot bullet... when this is thrown, the fingertips of the pitcher have been "pulled down" by the centrifugal force of the circle. As the thumb comes off, the ball simply rolls of the fingertips... like a drop would... only the hand is inside the ball. The movement of this pitch is multi-planar... because the large dot is "smooth", the narrows on the left of the ball can push this to the right a little. It's accentuated by the 'ole "step to the left" screw mechanics. I'd love to think that people wouldn't settle for this pitch.. but at times, people like Sarah and Emily Watson (of Tulsa) can really make this work. If producing backspin becomes out of the question, I'd like to think those that throw this spin would make the most out of it... so this is the only pitch where I'll have them step to the left a little. If your kid is not 17 or older, fix the spin... if they are on their way... master the location. This is by FAR the hardest rise spin to correct.

Throwing Level 1-2 on this pitch is no different than placing a fastball. Literally... so don't make it harder than it needs to be. It comes off the same way, will level sooner, and has a touch of down (depending on the speed): Sarah's pitch levels, Watson's pitch starts to come down a bit (70 mph Vs 62 mph, respectively).

A small dot bullet... almost always has the small dot in the lower center of the ball. As this axis is slightly vertical... the ramp effect of this pitch is much more noticeable. [MENTION=10413]riseball[/MENTION] touched on this spin nicely in another post, stating that the air resistance around the ball is constant, and as such has less movement. This is closer to a rise than many realize... and 9 times out of 10, the thumb is the culprit... bumping the ball over the outside of the index finger. Too many doorknob turners out there.

Producing lower locations on this pitch can be a it labor intensive... as the ramp effect it creates at level three is all but lost in mid-level 2 and level 1. However if we recognize the spin... all we need to do is raise the dot and treat this pitch as what it is... a bullet fastball. My recommendation would be to practice the levels by producing the spin in the following fashion... learn to produce the spin OVER the outside of the index finger. Spin rates will be about the same, if not identical.... direction of spin is identical (clockwise for RHP). When you recognize this... it's really pretty simple. No special tools... just place it as you would a fastball... no need (IMO) to adjust posture negatively (back)... just level out the hips (in relation to the ground). At level 1... IMO... this pitch is a really poor choice.

Backspin pitches (a.k.a. the elusive riseball) are either thrown over or under the thumb.... and very few ladies are producing this with the former, as many simply don't have the hand size necessary to keep the index under the ball at release.... or their thumb bumps the ball off-axis. Hoover does at times very well. The spin direction is putting resistance against the inertia of the ball... hence the floating or lifting effect it creates. Under the thumb rise balls have lesser spin rates... partly because of the thumb adding friction to the release and also because of the tension necessary in the last kinetic link to get it to spin properly. For comparison's sake... the same pitcher throwing a rise under the thumb at 20 rps... will probably throw over the thumb at 30 rps. Under the thumb riseballs are rare (in college softball)... and usually in the 60+ mph category... to be really special. There is truth, IMO, to the speed necessary to throw this "under the thumb" rise.
Over the thumb riseballs produce incredible spin rates... especially when the thumb is completely removed from the equation. The spin axis is much easier to master... however... in ANY real rise ball, there is a trade-off between spin/speed. The closer you get to the axis, the more accepting of lost speed you will need to become. The key to under the thumb, is maintaining contact with the ball on the meaty part of your hand (under your thumb), while maintaining some wrist flexion. I've seen 47-55 mph "lift-offs" with these... it's a truly special thing to watch. I think 55-60 is the magic number for speed, and I've never seen a spin rate under 20 with this.... and I've seen a bunch of 33+ rps, even upper 30's... and mid-40 rps. When you can get your spin rate on a rise over half the speed, the lift becomes really special.

Locating any pitch with this kind of spin rate requires that you start at an early age learning the spin... and incorporate location. I always ask a kid to throw it to the pitching arm side (RHP throws inside on a RHB) to master the spin. From there, we slowly dial it in/out without sacrificing axis.

Because this last series of pitches (real riseball) are thrown with pure spin... the location (north/south) is postural. Raise the throwing side hip to work the lower zone, level it to throw level 2, relax it into the rear knee to throw level 3.

None of this is easy... and I don't doubt that there are other effective methods to producing North/South location. I know I'll even use 46' distance at level three mastery... to help them hit the top of level two at 43'. However... when using other strategies, I realize that the efficiency of movement (body) is lost when the techniques require greater variation. As such, I try to keep the pitcher as 'efficient' in their movement as possible...
 
May 25, 2008
199
18
Pickerington Ohio
Java, I missed the under or over the thumb rise ball explanation, can you reference a previous thread or expound further? Which does Sarah P throw with her slicing motion. Thx, Go4
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
This is UNDER the thumb... for the illustration I keep my thumb off the ball. Notice the path of the thumb... there is NO TURNING THE DOORKNOB!

BallUnderThumb_zpshfw0viqg.gif


This is OVER the thumb... the thumb is folded over the "knocking knuckle" of the index finger...

BallOverThumb_zps5mstdovv.gif


In both of these examples... there is no twisting of the forearm. Just like a full pitch, the index finger acts on the bottom seem of the ball PURELY through INTERNAL ROTATION of the humerus... not the forearm... it remains in a supinated state. Like... dusting a tabletop with the back of your hand.

Which does Sarah P throw with her slicing motion. Thx, Go4
Sarah throws the large dot at times.

I'm hoping for some pics, gifs and video clips! Having a hard time picturing small dots, large dots, blurs, thumb under and thumb over... Not to mention trying to remember if JS uses DFP Standard Time on his clock for spin direction and axis, but also whether its from the catcher or pitcher's perspective! Can't wait for the light bulb moments when it clicks for me though!

Pushy, pushy, pushy... Mr. B.

My clock was cleaned a long time ago. Topspin is down spin... backspin is UP spin. Both produce a blur when the seems spin through the air. When the axis is rotated horizontally, the seems can make a DOT appear as you watch it head towars the catcher or as it approaches the catcher.

Little dot looks like this:

littleDot_zps6yi0l1ng.gif


Big dot looks like this... yuo can also see how the narrows created by the seems are pointing down towards the ground just before it comes out of her hand... as such, the ball rolls off her fingertips... similar to how the ball rolls off the fingertips in a drop... only the hand is inside the ball as opposed to behind it.

OffTheFinger-LargeDot_zps0otdbiwy.gif


You owe me dinner, Ken... eastern or pacific... lol
 
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