Educate me about the riseball

recently at a pitching clinic...i caught a real rise ball from an elite pitcher named Joe Tucker.
It was like a was watching a cartoon. The ball would literally jump when it got within 10 feet of me. I really could see it hop when he slowed it down to around 55, he could also zing it around 65-70. it was like there was a air pocket underneath. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. The amount of spin was amazing!! He is a real magician with the ball.

diamond14 said:

Knights imagery of Barnhill looks to me that the ball jumps up on its path I [I know this is as taboo as praising her mechanics ]

Click to expand...

A riseball thrown by any human will not actually lift. It is a physical impossibility.

But you damn sure will swear it does when you catch one.

The effect is nothing more than the ball falling slower than the brain predicts it should. The appearance of a jump comes from the brain telling you the predicted path of the ball based on experience. When the ball gets close and it hasn't fallen as much as the brain predicted, it revises the path of the ball to be higher. This causes the appearance of a jump. A side note, reading up on how it works makes you realize what an amazing thing the brain is.

A good number of "riseballs" are really ramp balls, but the unexpected angle the pitch is thrown at produces the same effect on the batters brain. Just like pitching from on corner of the rubber to the opposite corner of the plate can produce a screwball/curveball look without actually having real movement. In the end, if it fools the batter and gets results I don't think the name is all that important. If you catch a ramp ball (I like that term) and catch a riseball you will be able to instantly tell a difference. Real riseballs are pretty damn magical.

Part of the effect of great riseballs and other movement pitches is due in large part to the rapid deceleration. This gives the appearance of a jump or late break.

ddtimes4 said:

The ball would literally jump when it got within 10 feet of me. I really could see it hop when he slowed it down to around 55, he could also zing it around 65-70. it was like there was a air pocket underneath.

Click to expand...

DNeeld says
"A riseball thrown by any human will not actually lift. It is a physical impossibility."

Divergent opinions. I understand that the pressure differentials maybe not enough to provide lift to overcome mass of ball to actually cause a "jump". But then I still want to know what performance difference is there between Barnhill throwing a bullet spin pitch ostensibly aimed at the spectator in the third row behind the ump (Rampball). Which given her strength/speed will be taking an upward trajectory (albeit in declining parabolic fashion) as opposed to backspin pitch launched at say the top of catchers head.
I think I may just have to wait to experience it for myself while on the bucket.

diamond14 said:

DNeeld says
"A riseball thrown by any human will not actually lift. It is a physical impossibility."

Divergent opinions. I understand that the pressure differentials maybe not enough to provide lift to overcome mass of ball to actually cause a "jump". But then I still want to know what performance difference is there between Barnhill throwing a bullet spin pitch ostensibly aimed at the spectator in the third row behind the ump (Rampball). Which given her strength/speed will be taking an upward trajectory (albeit in declining parabolic fashion) as opposed to backspin pitch launched at say the top of catchers head.
I think I may just have to wait to experience it for myself while on the bucket.

Click to expand...

If you watch Barnhill throw a "rampball" her weight is forward and because of her mechanics (don't get me started) her release point is almost at the front of the circle. A mere 35ft from the plate. A pitch with bulletspin is aerodynamically very efficient (usually a bad thing) and does not lose velocity like a most movement pitches. As such given how close she is to the plate, her velocity which is probably around 70-71mph and minimal loss of velocity the time of flight is very short. I will leave it to others to do the math but I suspect that the time of flight is very close to what would be expected of a conventional pitch thrown in the mid to high 70's. All this along with less than disciplined hitters and you have a very effective pitch. However, this pitch only works with less than disciplined hitters and must be thrown up and usually out of the zone. IOW she is throwing gas and blowing it by them.

Compare that to a true riseball thrown with a weight back posture that is released closer to 37 feet from the plate. Thrown at 67mph, spin rate of 30+ rps, with a proper riseball axis you have a pitch that is aerodynamically inefficient (this is a good thing) and will lose a significant amount of velocity from the time it is released to the time it reaches the plate. Although the time of flight is longer the loss of velocity creates a breaking behavior which serves to disrupt the hitters timing and provides the visual "hover" effect. That along with the unconventional trajectory where it stays up longer and you have a very effective pitch that can be thrown from the bottom to the top of the ladder.

diamond14 said:

DNeeld says
"A riseball thrown by any human will not actually lift. It is a physical impossibility."

Divergent opinions. I understand that the pressure differentials maybe not enough to provide lift to overcome mass of ball to actually cause a "jump". But then I still want to know what performance difference is there between Barnhill throwing a bullet spin pitch ostensibly aimed at the spectator in the third row behind the ump (Rampball). Which given her strength/speed will be taking an upward trajectory (albeit in declining parabolic fashion) as opposed to backspin pitch launched at say the top of catchers head.
I think I may just have to wait to experience it for myself while on the bucket.

Click to expand...

I'll try to keep it short.

First, Rise hit on the effectiveness of Barnhill's ramp ball and the reasons behind it. It is largely caused by reaction time being reduced and the unusual angle of the pitch thrown. Let's compare this to a real riseball.

To talk about the riseball, we must first understand how sight works and how the brain interprets visual signals. Most people (well, those that even think about it) think we see in analog, a steady stream of visual information that is constantly flowing. This is not true. Humans see in snapshots. These are super fast snapshots but none the less, the eyes record a snapshot of an image, the brain interprets it, the eyes take another snap shot, the brain interprets it, and so on. Based on the individual, the speed of these snapshots vary, but a decent estimate is about one shot every 10 milliseconds.

Now, everytime a ball is thrown at you your brain creates a "library". It learns to recognize things like spin, speed, angle, etc. It takes this information and predicts the path of the ball. In other words, your brain is trying to work ahead of the actual path of the ball, instinctively telling you where the ball will be instead of where it is at. The evolutionary reasons and advantages of this are obvious.

Ok, now you have a riseball thrown at you. Your brain recognizes the speed, angle, etc, consults the library it has stored, and tells your body "ok, the ball will end up about here when it crosses the plate." Your body starts the swing to hit the ball where the brain is telling you it will be all the while your eyes continue to take snapshots and send the information to your brain. When the ball gets close the proper spin and speed of the pitch have caused it to "hang" in the air. In other words, it hasn't fallen as much as a regular pitch would thus making the brain's prediction wrong. Your eyes take a snapshot when the ball is close, your brain interprets the information and says "Oh crap, the ball isn't where I thought it would be. Let me revise the prediction with this new information". The point at which this happens is well after the swing has begun. The brain revises the prediction with the new information and adjusts the balls path to be higher. Suddenly your body is being told the ball is higher than it should be. This creates the "jump" illusion. And that is all it is: an illusion. A damn convincing one, but an illusion none the less.

Compare this to Barnhill's pitch. It is made from a close distance so the brain has fewer snapshots to process the information. It has less time to predict a ball path and direct the body to it. There is no "jump" effect, it is basically just a flamethrower pitch thrown at an odd angle. Barnhill, with this pitch, is really no different than the 10U pitcher that throws around 50 right down the middle. Most batters simply can't catch up to it.

For both pitches, however, the brain is constantly building the library. After seeing enough of either pitch it will learn to process the information and recognize and predict the correct path. This is how these (and all) pitches eventually become hittable. The advantage for Barnhill is the reduced reaction time the hitter has and the advantage for a true riseball is that hitters generally do not see a ton of them.

DNeeld said:

I'll try to keep it short.

Click to expand...

somebody print this,
and send to all of the ESPN game announcers. STAT!

diamond14 said:

So Im sure most have heard a similar story.... At a game umpire calls ball (high), dad yells "that was a riseball". Start conversation with a friend about riseball (this is 14U game). He claims, yeah that pitcher throws a rise. I ask how do you know--she told me! I watch spin and only see bullet. But ball does "rise". I think of Java referring to such a thing a RAMP ball. Which prompts me to say I think she is throwing an upward trajectory and explain spin. He says, "Yeah goes up from the batters POV"
So I understand spin/magnus/physics etc, but what BEHAVIORAL differences does a true riseball display that is so deadly to hitters that the rampball doesnt.
And if this seems elementary to some, I get that, but would like to understand better.

Click to expand...

As many have commented... the "lifting" or slowing effect as the ball plains out is really the ticket. The bullet ramp ball can be thrown in two ways:

Pure rifled bullet... appearing as a small dot. This one just climbs at a constant speed...
Scrise (RHP), or Rurve (LHP)... appearing as a large dot. This one levels out sooner, but takes a second plane of movement.

Sarah threw me a scrise... large dot... but the movement to the right made me scratch my head... rather than catch the ball.

The backspin rise has no visual associated with it...other than a blur... or the appearance of a dot forming on the perimeter of the ball if it's off-axis.

The large dot rolls off the index finger.
The small dot rolls over the outside of the index finger as it moves forward.

The 12-6 rise exits either UNDER the thumb... or over the thumb... but NEVER with the thumb.

Java,
Thanks for posting. (to others following thread, be sure to see visuals JS posted in other riseball thread) Echoing KenB, if you are ever in neighborhood, I will gladly foot the check for grub. Your help over the last 8 months has been irreplaceable, Thanks!

DNeeld,
thanks, for descriptive explanation, helped to clarify issue.