Peel Drop where to start

My DD is in her first year of 12U. She is 5'1" and 95 lbs. She has a gymnasts build, very strong for her size. She is actually a very good ballerina. The dancing has really helped to develope her core muscles. She uses IR in her pitching motion. If I'm honest she cruises between 48-52. She has good not perfect control of her fastball and a good flip change that she worked on this off season. It's been a lot of fun learning about softball and catching for her. This season I will look for a good PC. We live in Appleton, WI. Eventually I will post a video of her pitching. She is a leap and drag pitcher, she pitches with an open style. How do I get her started on the peel drop. Her fastball has a bit of a 11-5 spin viewed from the catchers position. She is a right hander. I like Hillhouse's view that she shouldn't change her mechanics for the drop. Others say to shorten the leap and get on top of the stride foot.( She stride about 5'6") And pull up and back on the ball for more spin. It seams as though in girls softball all the pitcher make drastic changes to their stride and body mechanics when pitching movement pitches. If pitching with IR should she follow through the same way as her fastball or with her palm facing her shoulder and arm parallel to the ground. How does Hillhouse get more spin on his drop balls. Any advise on pitching coaches in my area and on how to get my daughter started on the peel drop is greatly appreciated. This is a great site and I'm gad I found it and a great big thank you goes out to all of you who take the time to help us with our DD.

Thanks,
Dave

If I'm honest she cruises between 48-52.

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Why start being honest now?

Bill is a great pitcher. If you want to know more about his approach, you'll have to talk to him.

She needs to understand what she is trying to do. This is a tennis video about topspin. It explains how a ball behaves when it is has topspin.

Topspin in Tennis

A good starting point is to have her take three fingers and put them close together like giving a Boy Scout pledge. Have her put the fingers on the ball so that the tips of the finger overlap a seam. Position the seams so that as the ball rotates, four seams will be rotating toward the catcher. Have her get open, take her arm back to 9 o'clock, and then throw the ball, really emphasizing cocking the wrist when she takes it back and having a very hard snap at release. If she does a real hard snap at release, her hand will come up instead of out.

Bill's video - "Building the House" is excellent value. He touches on this and many other mechanics issues. That woudl be a great place to start.

Sorry, but I see little value in Hillhouse's video. It doesn't really define the exact mechanics to acheive a true peel drop. If the pitcher tries to increase the spin as per Bill's tape, without understanding that she needs to compensate for the change in release point, then the only thing she'll acheive is a ball that rolls across the plate. I've studied the Hillhouse videos, and I'm unimpressed-- he generalizes the techniques needed to acheive the desired movement, without really being specific as to how to execute it.
If you're trying to develop a peel drop that crosses the plate at a low trajectory and which the ball drops under the strike zone, you have to adjust your release to acheive the spin that gets the drop action. That's possible only by changing the angle of your wrist to roll over the top of the ball at the release point, instead of snapping the wrist through the ball as you would do with a fastball. Hillhouse is a great pitcher, but like most great athletes, he isn't really able to break down the mechanics of a pitch which ordinary athletes can apply to their training and development.
jim

redhawkridge said:

Sorry, but I see little value in Hillhouse's video. It doesn't really define the exact mechanics to acheive a true peel drop. If the pitcher tries to increase the spin as per Bill's tape, without understanding that she needs to compensate for the change in release point, then the only thing she'll acheive is a ball that rolls across the plate. I've studied the Hillhouse videos, and I'm unimpressed-- he generalizes the techniques needed to acheive the desired movement, without really being specific as to how to execute it.
If you're trying to develop a peel drop that crosses the plate at a low trajectory and which the ball drops under the strike zone, you have to adjust your release to acheive the spin that gets the drop action. That's possible only by changing the angle of your wrist to roll over the top of the ball at the release point, instead of snapping the wrist through the ball as you would do with a fastball. Hillhouse is a great pitcher, but like most great athletes, he isn't really able to break down the mechanics of a pitch which ordinary athletes can apply to their training and development.
jim

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This is a remarkable post. When I first read this, I thought it was a joke. I had to re-read it several times. A video is a tool for training, not a substitute. Your assertion that Bill cannot break down mechanics for "ordinary athletes" is so ridiculous because it's what he excels at. My DD and I have been to clinics of his, lessons of his and even gotten to go see him pitch in games. What he teaches is exactly what he does in games and what he demonstrates at lessons. Yet, you claim it's impossible.. so I guess your pitching career (which I assume is more impressive than Bill's) is more accomplished. The fact that Hillhouse keeps it simple and doesn't overcompliate the process is the genius behind it. That it's not about altering 10 things in your motion to throw a drop. It's about adjusting the release point. And I'm telling you from both watching it live (him pitching) and catching for my DD, it works. It's truly that simple. Does the video account for everything that a pitcher can do wrong which will prevent the drop from moving? Of course not. NO VIDEO HAS EVERY BIT OF INFORMATION IN IT. That's why they are tools for the trade, not substitutes for the coach.

Dave, read the IR thread to the point the gears are used to show the spin. The spin you describe on the FB (11-5 as catcher sees it) would be close if your DD is a lefty as I understand it.

I read the thread on spin. How does my daughter get 11-5 spin? She's right handed. We're starting to do the show it throw it drill in an attempt to correct the spin. Having some success but when she's not thinking of the spin and just throwing hard it returns to 11-5. This will probably take a while to fix.

Dave,
11-5 spin from a right hander suggests that she has her hand turned in toward her body (slightly) at release. If she has consistent 11-5, my experience is that she can get reasonable drop action if she can put enough revs on the ball at release--it's close enough to 12-6 get some down, and you may luck into a little outside movement to a right handed batter. At 48-50, most of the drop I see is "gravity drop." Most of the 12-6/11-5/1-7 pitchers I have worked with have "natural" down movement on their pitches if they can put a lot of spin on the ball. The peel drop just magnifies the action and increases spin. When I first started working with pitchers, my mentor was an "old school" wrist-snap, elbow up guy. We did the electrical tape line on the ball to judge spin, and worked really hard to get 12-6 on every fastball. All of our pitchers had down action on their pitches, especially when they threw really hard. DD and the other girls I've worked with in the past several years have all developed IR mechanics, but stick a taped ball in their hands, and they go straight to 12-6/11-5 spin. One of my pitchers (unfortunately, NOT DD) throws a particularly wicked 11-5 peel at about 58. Problem is, only 1 of my catchers can stop it.

I'm by no means an expert (as many here claim to be) but as a dad that has caught a few thousand pitches from 10u to 14u, I can tell you the 12-6 spin peel drop is a thing of beauty. My 14u DD throws a very nice peel drop at 55 to 57 and it is very effective. As Dave D stated above, my DD get lessons from an old school instructor, and he preaches 12-6 spin on fast ball and that translates into a very nice peel drop that looks very much like her fastball but has nice late movement that gives batters a fit. We have another pitcher on out TB team that takes lessons from a young lady that pitched D2 a few years back and she cannot teach the peel drop and doesn't like the pitch. The other pitcher has some side spin on fastball and has asked DD how she throws her drop, but other pitcher cannot get proper spin for peel drop. Only problem with good peel drop is finding a catcher that is capable or willing to catch it, last travel team gave DD very little PT because of passed balls, that they viewed as wild pitches. We found a team with a beast catcher and all is well now.

redhawkridge said:

Sorry, but I see little value in Hillhouse's video. It doesn't really define the exact mechanics to acheive a true peel drop. If the pitcher tries to increase the spin as per Bill's tape, without understanding that she needs to compensate for the change in release point, then the only thing she'll acheive is a ball that rolls across the plate. I've studied the Hillhouse videos, and I'm unimpressed-- he generalizes the techniques needed to acheive the desired movement, without really being specific as to how to execute it.
If you're trying to develop a peel drop that crosses the plate at a low trajectory and which the ball drops under the strike zone, you have to adjust your release to acheive the spin that gets the drop action. That's possible only by changing the angle of your wrist to roll over the top of the ball at the release point, instead of snapping the wrist through the ball as you would do with a fastball. Hillhouse is a great pitcher, but like most great athletes, he isn't really able to break down the mechanics of a pitch which ordinary athletes can apply to their training and development.
jim

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Wow. I'll try to do better if I make a new video.

With all of this talk of 11/5 spin, etc. one thing needs to be kept in mind: in an extreme number of cases, if 6/12 spin is not being achieved it's likely because of something else going wrong in the motion. Someone suggested it had to do with the hand position at release. That's possible. Or it could be the hand position at the 12:00 position too. To get more spin, make sure the elbow, wrist, AND fingers all working in sequence. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen pitchers who are not using all 3 in the pitch and it will make a difference! It's not magic and it's not something that only "exceptional" pitchers can do. It's just about getting her body to work correctly, the way it's designed to achieve the most from it. That includes the whip needed from the elbow, wrist and fingers.

Bill