Charting Pitches

Lots to reply to....

I'm glad you started this thread and I hope a lot more people contribute. I want to learn something.

As far as the pitcher shaking me off... a lot depends on the situation. Here's an example. She's facing a batter, big strong kid. Her 1st AB, she's way ahead of everything, pulling it foul. You can tell this kid wants to hit and hit the crap out of the ball. Change ups she's pulling crazy hard. She fouls off 6-8 inside pitches in a row. So, I call an outside change up. Pitcher shakes me off. So, I go inside change low that the pitcher misses high and get her swinging. Ask the pitcher between innings why she shook me off and she said she was afraid the hitter would crush an outside change up. So, with my idea that we call pitches where the pitcher is comfortable I ask her how she wants to pitcher her next time. She's says let's stay inside. So, next AB, she's rips an inside fastball to LF for a single. I felt like she knew it was coming.

A couple tournies later she's pitching in a champ game. Around the 3rd inning or so, she's shaking off change ups. After 3 or 4 times, I go talk to her on the mound. Ask her what's up. She says she's not throwing the change up very well and doesn't want to throw it. I tell that's fine but we can't just throw fastballs. She says what about the curve. I've noted at this point that she's thrown the curve 9 straight times for a ball. So that's not working either. So, I tell her that and she smiles and says let's work fastball & change up. I was going to tell her I was calling change ups and she needs to throw them but she decided to on her own.

We throw a lot of outside pitches. That first pitch changeup to a good hitter is outside. I see quite a few weak groundballs to 2B because hey hit it off the end of the bat.

What's the hardest pitch to hit? I think an inside fastball. So, if you're on the plate I'm coming inside because its hard to turn on it and hit it decently.

Yeah outside in stealing situations to give the catcher a better opportunity to make a good throw. The situation dictates it for sure though.

Inside to slappers it like I was saying above about inside pitches. Harder to hit. Also, its a slapper trying to hit the ball to the left side to beat a throw? Its harder to hit an inside pitch to the left. I see lots of foul balls. Could it be the slappers we face aren't the greatest?

As far as playing reactive, I don't know if I see it that way. I think I play to the advantages of the situation. I will say that I've been thinking a lot about it lately just for the fact that I think our 3 pitchers get ahead with 2 strikes a ton but don't strike a lot of people out. I worry about being predictable. If DD's bread & butter is outside drops, should I really throw it >70% of the time? Just pulled 70% out of the air. I feel like if the batter know what's coming, they have an advantage.

I will bring my pitching charts with me next week and maybe we can speed some time talking about that as well?

As FP86 and spleen1015 indicated this is a good topic and I am always looking for different approaches. Some people probably don't want to give up their "trade secrets" lol.

Do any of you who are calling pitches chart what location was called and then also where it was thrown? This may be a bigger issue at the younger ages where their ability to hit their spot is still developing, but we find it useful. One of our coaches is building an app that will help us track called versus thrown location and also batter result so we can see what pitches are being thrown where they are called and what pitch locations are effective for a given pitcher.

Java, could you put up a blank template up for your pitching chart. I would love b to start using that sane one.

robertc3 said:

Do any of you who are calling pitches chart what location was called and then also where it was thrown? This may be a bigger issue at the younger ages where their ability to hit their spot is still developing, but we find it useful. One of our coaches is building an app that will help us track called versus thrown location and also batter result so we can see what pitches are being thrown where they are called and what pitch locations are effective for a given pitcher.

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Our coaching staff was looking to do the same thing. If you get something please post link would like to try it out. We currently track the pitch/location and then where the pitch actually went. We try to put together a summary for the pitcher (and parents) to make adjustments in games but also information for them to review with pitching instructor as to what needs work during their lessons.

The paper shuffle is tedious and looking to stream line the system.

spleen1015 said:

I'm glad you started this thread and I hope a lot more people contribute. I want to learn something.

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Amen, me too!

spleen1015 said:

As far as the pitcher shaking me off...

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All things relative... do you think the outside change in your example would've still been hit? Probably more up the middle... no?

spleen1015 said:

We throw a lot of outside pitches. That first pitch changeup to a good hitter is outside. I see quite a few weak groundballs to 2B because hey hit it off the end of the bat.

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I've used this strategy before, no doubt. I attack good hitters with a mix of speeds... and often just the opposite. For instance... I'll use their strength in making contact as a means to get "long strikes" at times. Outside smoke high to get the first foul. Inside change to get the second. Based upon what they did with the first, (straight back Vs. 1st base foul)... I'll call a level 3 rise just outside the zone as a follow-up to the change... then pitch them low and out with speed/change if they are still in the box.

spleen1015 said:

What's the hardest pitch to hit? I think an inside fastball. So, if you're on the plate I'm coming inside because its hard to turn on it and hit it decently.

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I would disagree with this when facing good competition. But... that said, the batter at the plate really determines this... rather than a "rule of thumb" approach. HS games and lower-level travel usually have a lot of casting/dumping swings... and I totally agree that this is a sound strategy in attacking these types of swings. Good hitters know how to turn a corner with early bat speed. I'd say that 80+% of the yard balls in D1 softball are inside at the hands.

spleen1015 said:

Yeah outside in stealing situations to give the catcher a better opportunity to make a good throw. The situation dictates it for sure though.

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I get what you're saying... just a hard pill for me to swallow... as I can't stand getting behind in a count. Would rather the pitcher focus on the batter than the runner.

spleen1015 said:

Inside to slappers it like I was saying above about inside pitches. Harder to hit. Also, its a slapper trying to hit the ball to the left side to beat a throw? Its harder to hit an inside pitch to the left. I see lots of foul balls. Could it be the slappers we face aren't the greatest?

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I think this is where a specific slappers tendencies carry the greatest weight... that and where the runners are on base. I once told a kid to get "inside the slappers head"... so the first pitch she threw was to the slappers helmet! Fortunately... the girl got out of the way... and her adjustment on subsequent swings made it east to strike her out on the outside/low corner. I really like a lefty pitcher in these scenarios... seems like their outside strike zone is larger than a RHP.

spleen1015 said:

As far as playing reactive, I don't know if I see it that way. I think I play to the advantages of the situation. I will say that I've been thinking a lot about it lately just for the fact that I think our 3 pitchers get ahead with 2 strikes a ton but don't strike a lot of people out. I worry about being predictable. If DD's bread & butter is outside drops, should I really throw it >70% of the time? Just pulled 70% out of the air. I feel like if the batter know what's coming, they have an advantage.

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Much of the third strike is about mentality more than "pitching", IMO. It's for this reason that I really want pitchers to have the mentality that a strike-out IS THE OUT... not a hit/contact. Their job is to mow down batters, not give exercise to the defense. I've known girls that are fundamentally perfect... throw 60+... and they cannot throw a third strike for an out. And when you ask them... they know this better than anyone. In contrast, when you ask them about getting "strike 1 and strike 2"... they say it's easy. I think one of the universal understandings in pitching is to get ahead early... and as such, they do this well. It is THE expectation. Those kids accept that... but look at the 3rd strike as mission impossible. For kids like this, I talk a lot about identifying a batters weakness early in the count. I tell them that the pitches I call once a batter reaches 2-strikes are about exploiting a weakness in their battle with the batter. Heck, I've even told kids that I expect 4-strikes on every batter. Whatever the case, giving them the confidence goes a long way... and giving them the expectation that the only out that matters is a strike out.

If, however, a pitcher knows that she is to throw outside on a steal attempt, or throw in on a slapper to cause a hit on the right side of the infield, or that throwing inside on a hitter lessens "big hits", and that throwing a change to a batter outside will cause a weak hit to 2B... I would think too much of this exposure might change their "psychology"... and as such, lessen the urgency of knocking out a batter. The expectations are high on a pitcher, no doubt... but when they understand that for every hit, the chance of an error exponentially increases... I think they are in the best position to dominate.

Lastly, I also let pitchers know that contact early (foul balls) is ok... and often what helps us figure out what a batters weakness is. Once they get that second foul... I let them know we are calling a pitch to avoid contact. Just a different psychology... know what I mean?

spleen1015 said:

I will bring my pitching charts with me next week and maybe we can speed some time talking about that as well?

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I'm truly excited to get the opportunity to work with you guys! Going to be awesome!

robertc3 said:

Do any of you who are calling pitches chart what location was called and then also where it was thrown? This may be a bigger issue at the younger ages where their ability to hit their spot is still developing, but we find it useful. One of our coaches is building an app that will help us track called versus thrown location and also batter result so we can see what pitches are being thrown where they are called and what pitch locations are effective for a given pitcher.

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Cool. This is a great idea for an app. When calling pitches in games, I always use the band system... and a player/coach will list every call in order to cross-reference when necessary. I think the most important use for charting where a pitch was located in the zone... is to get an understanding of what a batter hits well - but also what sequence may break/lessen that ability. ALternatively, it's amazing how many batters aren't ready to really start swinging until they've seen 1 pitch. For those kids... show them what they'll never see again.

robertc3 brings up a good point... calling locations on a pitcher without control is a frustrating and often futile experience... great for coaches/players to recognize their effectiveness/rank in this aspect.

IS4AU said:

Java, could you put up a blank template up for your pitching chart. I would love b to start using that sane one.

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https://1drv.ms/b/s!AsTfPWwCsZlGgxGM9zmunxgB4r8W

Fastpitch86 said:

The paper shuffle is tedious and looking to stream line the system.

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Something special about that notebook, though...

corlay said:

I've watched a LOT of Auburn games this year,
and I came to the casual conclusion that she is an extremely patient hitter,
that draws a lot of walks.

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Yeah, the best hitters always are. They also are ready... and know the 1st pitch psychology.

MightyMO said:

DD played for a former MLB relief pitcher previously. Part of his job as a pro was to chart pitches from the bullpen and he loved doing it so he charted quite a bit during the softball games (while calling pitches). It looked like chicken scratches to me and I never got to ask him for his method. I need to get a hold of him and have him explain it to me some time.

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Please do... that would be kickass to have something like that to review.

Just like anything else... the more you do this kind of thing, the more you take on. At first, I was lucky to get the dots correct... but it's suprisingly easy to get this kind of info after you have some practice. While practicing... have a camera back-up.

corlay said:

in the chart above,
the last at-bat of the 4th inning is the impressive one:

all pitches "below the line" and still got the K...

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They appear to have an inside ladder approach to Madi Gipson. They really tried to get her to chase an apparent weakness with the level 3 pitches, twice setting her up with a low pitch before the knockout level 3.

Finally... if anyone has made it this far...

What do you all think about the "exposure" effect? Case: K Barnhill is truly a one-trick pony. Rise, rise, rise, etc. Just like anything... the more batters see her, I would guess the more effective they become. If you look at the chart in the first post... notice how she only throws 2 pitches "below the line" in the first three innings. In the next three... 11 times. Forget the last inning... Auburn had thrown in the towel, giving back the advantage with pinch hitters.

In fact... I would bet that if Florida didn't have the depth... her ERA would be 2+. I'd like to believe it wouldn't... but it's amazing how little Japan uses Yukiko in advance of big games... and I've heard it's for that very reason.

So perhaps the best way to make a pitcher excellent... is to compliment her with a different look... and use her in balance.

Oh and by the way Auburns pitching coach resigned tonight. Big blow to them.

I was also curious as to what all your thoughts are on the batter positions in the box? ....Question from Mike.

A couple of the normal reasons for positioning in the back of the box:
As your chart analysis points out, Barnhill is predominately a riseball pitcher.....who throws extremely fast.
1. More reaction time for the hitter.....especially needed since Barnhill crowhops and then performs her pitch from about 37 feet from the plate....thus reducing the normal reaction time available for a hitter.
2. If you view the riseball from the profile view it will show that a pitch in the strike zone will have significantly lost its upward trajectory (flattened out) as it enters the hitting zone....therefore, hitter farther back=less upward angle to deal with....thus less swing plane adjustment required.

Rick Pauly said:

I was also curious as to what all your thoughts are on the batter positions in the box? ....Question from Mike.

A couple of the normal reasons for positioning in the back of the box:
As your chart analysis points out, Barnhill is predominately a riseball pitcher.....who throws extremely fast.
1. More reaction time for the hitter.....especially needed since Barnhill crowhops and then performs her pitch from about 37 feet from the plate....thus reducing the normal reaction time available for a hitter.
2. If you view the riseball from the profile view it will show that a pitch in the strike zone will have significantly lost its upward trajectory (flattened out) as it enters the hitting zone....therefore, hitter farther back=less upward angle to deal with....thus less swing plane adjustment required.

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By the time it flattens out, isn't it a bad pitch to hit at that point?

spleen1015 said:

By the time it flattens out, isn't it a bad pitch to hit at that point?

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Well, if it's in the strike zone and you already have two strikes on you............I think you should attempt to hit it. Even a good riseball flattens out if in the zone....but it has already worked its magic.