Unleashing the textbook riseball

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ArmyStrong

Going broke on softball
Sep 14, 2014
87
8
Pacific NW
Watching some high school games this weekend and saw an effective pitcher with a 60 mph drop and a 58 mph rise (speeds per my pocket radar ball coach). The pitcher threw her rise over 50% of the time.

The spin on her rise, however, was clearly bullet spin, not even partially backwards spin. So here's what I'm wondering:

Would you continue having your DD throw her rise if it is only bullet spin?
Would you have your DD improve on her rise spin before using it in a game?
Is bullet spin good enough for most college coaches? (I know some coaches do not consider bullet spin pitches as riseballs)
Does the answers to the above depend on the speed of the pitch?

BTW, I believe it's hard to identify a great riseball because there is such little video of what a riseball spin looks like from the catcher's point of view. As a result, it's hard to determine whether my DD is doing it correctly.
 
May 30, 2013
1,442
83
Binghamton, NY
Would you continue having your DD throw her rise if it is only bullet spin?
depends.

If her other pitches (drop especially) are spinning correctly, then yes - with the caveat of continue to work toward correct riseball spin.
Hard to do during HS/Travel season, but come next off-season really break it down and get it right.

If all her other pitches are somewhat "bullety" than no.
Throw it high if you want, but stop calling it a "riseball" - it's just a fastball located high in the zone at that point.

Would you have your DD improve on her rise spin before using it in a game?
see answer above.

Is bullet spin good enough for most college coaches? (I know some coaches do not consider bullet spin pitches as riseballs)
sure seems like it - as long as 62+ velocity and location/control is there to go along with it.

Does the answers to the above depend on the speed of the pitch?
see answer above.
Yes - speed makes it a lot easier to accept.

I think what lacks the most in developing the rise is patience.
Learning to spin the ball backwards is hard, learning to spin it backwards with velocity is doubly-hard.
My gut tells me that most pitchers learn to throw a tight bullet, with velocity and are satisfied with that.
I do think that at some point, around HS/College level, a pitcher *may* make the decision to sacrifice a little spin axis for speed.
But that is a decision to put off until then. When learning the rise always strive for spin axis perfection!

I can tell you from first-hand experience however, a truly back-spinning rise ball is just something pretty awesome to behold.
Even at (temporary) reduced velocity, it's a pitch that has great value.

The contrast of a true drop and a true rise, is extraordinary.
Toss in a good change-up and you are now controlling the at-bat, and everyone is left guessing.
3 pitches, try and hit me.
 
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sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
I agree with Corlay.

Would you continue having your DD throw her rise if it is only bullet spin?

Yes.

Would you have your DD improve on her rise spin before using it in a game?
No.

Is bullet spin good enough for most college coaches? (I know some coaches do not consider bullet spin pitches as riseballs)
Yes.

Does the answers to the above depend on the speed of the pitch?

Everything depends upon the speed of the pitcher.

I believe it's hard to identify a great riseball because there is such little video of what a riseball spin looks like from the catcher's point of view. As a result, it's hard to determine whether my DD is doing it correctly.

Not really...it is just because you haven't seen one yet.

A bulletspin is easy to detect. The center of the ball is green. The center of the ball for a rise and drop are fuzzier.

If the pitcher gets true backspin on the ball, the ball will seem to float upward. (No, it doesn't really go up. But, it sure looks like it does.) The first few times she throws a good rise, the ball will go one to two inches over the top of your mitt. You will scratch your head and think something like, "What the heck was that? Why did I miss it?"

By the by...only an idiot catches a pitcher trying to throw a riseball without a mask. I'm dead serious...one of my friends got his cheek fractured trying to catch a rise.
 
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Ken Krause

Administrator
Admin
May 7, 2008
3,911
113
Mundelein, IL
To me, the most important measure of a pitch's effectiveness (and therefore utility in a game) is whether it helps the pitcher get people out. So if she's throwing a bullet spin "riseball" and hitters are swinging under it, keep using it. There are no style or technical points awarded during softball games. If hitters are laying off, or hitting it all over, stop using it.

That said, I would continue to work toward getting proper spin on it, especially if she wants to advance to the next level, whatever that may be.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Great response, Corlay.

His DD is in the process... and of all my students that are "developing" this pitch... she is off to a GREAT start... can't wait to see this pitch in a year.

A bullet spin ball that is located up in the zone is a ramp ball... not a rise ball. No offense to all of those that throw this way... but it ain't the same thing... ;)

Sluggers hit the nail on the head regarding visuals... fuzz Vs. dots.

Here's the thing... there is nothing wrong (at times) with a RAMP ball. Couple of points to consider:

1) If it's your fastest pitch... why get rid of it? Abbott made a career out of 74 mph pitches.
2) If you can locate it well... it can be very serviceable.

Screwballs are... in essence... ramp balls, right? They are the only MOVEMENT pitch NOT named after movement. They are appropriately named after the spin they achieve, IMO.

A curve moves outward...
A rise moves upward... (less down is up)
A drop moves downward.
A screwball moves... screwy? ;)

Recognizing the two-types of bulletspin is REALLY important in developing a good riseball. Big dot is REALLY hard to fix... without some major grip variations/practice... little dot is much easier.

Anywho... throwing bulletspin can be risky business. I have an active video diary of over 500 HR's in college... and more than 60% of them are bullet-type spin AND located inside. If you are to use the spin... do so with a supporting cast of blur-spins/locations/speeds... a great third baseman... and possibly a neck brace (for all the head-turning) you might be doing as you watch balls land in the parking lot beyond left field.

It is a serviceable pitch... but it's far too often a lack of training to spin correctly, rather than the tool it can be. So... to the OP... if time allows, develop the spin.

For what it's worth... I teach ALL spins from day 1....

I expect all students to be able to recognize and produce:

1) 6-12
2) 7-1
3) 7-1, yawed
4) bullet

Then...

5) backspin
6) 9-3

And each has a GREAT use...
 

Chris Delorit

Member
Apr 24, 2016
343
28
Green Bay, WI
ArmyStrong,

These views should give you a better idea of what your end goal should look like. Albeit, it is difficult to see the seam rotation in the vids. If it helps, you're seeing somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-2 to 7-1 backward spin rotation. Neither examples are perfect 6-12, although that does exist.

Bullet spin should never be confused with a rise ball. Bullet is a malfunction of mechanics at release. Many times it can be the hand/fingers pulling off of the inside of the ball as the result of trying to over-power the pitch at release. For a right-handed pitcher, this is somewhere around the 3-9-ish rotational area.

Like your other replies suggest, if it works use it. Will it work at higher levels of competition? It could, but the probability is less likely in that 55 - 60 range. Right now, it's just another high straight pitch that doesn't move. There's ten thousand kids like that. Your goal is to make that climb and curve, and control it. If she can achieve that, she'll have an advantage and potentially more opportunities. An old wise man once said...there's the best, and then the rest. The path is up to you.

Does she have success, and what are her future goals? Does she work with a reputable PC, who you've done your homework on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kky2oeAja6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmiVfY--SXk


A little quiz for anyone interested...

There's one change up thrown in the first minute of the first video.

Envision yourself as the hitter. You have an advantage. See if you can "pick" the change prior to release. It's there. Can you find your advantage?

;)

Chris
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Tony has a pretty good gig going right now as a student assistant at Oregon! Imagine the BP those girls get between White, Glasco and Aresco! He has some of the best videos on the net, although I wish I could see the spins better...

 
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