Screwball help

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Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
I'll pitch in on sluggers' reward for a legit, game-speed screwball video! [MENTION=2222]Edy[/MENTION] has the best example I've seen on video.
Unfortunately most folks who would bite on this are going for the big money with a business opportunity from Nigeria. :)
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
sluggers, With all due respect, I don't believe the pitch has to be a perfect 9-3 rotation to be a screwball. I'd say most, if not all, riseball pitchers have some tilt to the axis. I think the same can be said of a screwball and a curveball.

What I think is happening with man10's DD is that she's likely throwing a scrop or scrise (i.e., some screwball spin, but not pure screwball).

I agree. Since "true" 9-3 rotation or any "true" rotation is not required for an effective pitch it is really not relevant. Claiming that a pitch is not a pitch because it does not have "true rotation" is a fallacious, silly argument.
 
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May 25, 2008
199
18
Pickerington Ohio


Ken, Thanks for posting the video. Do you believe that Haeger's screwball breaks? I do and if you do, what spin is on the pitch and why does it break? My opinion is that the spin is the same as Rick Pauly's corkscrew curve which I would think is the same as Boardmember's curve. The difference is the axis of the spin. IOW if you are looking at the ball from the pitcher's perspective the dot that you see would determine the break. If the dot of the spiral spin is pointing directly back towards you, no break that's straight corkscrew spin. If you are throwing the curve then the dot will be to the right of center and opposite for the screw, the dot will appear to the left half of the ball, both from the pitcher's perspective. Of course the pitcher has to throw the ball on an angle, in the direction she wants the pitch to break. I'm asking this because I have never been able to throw much less teach a curve with the goal being a 3 to 9 o'clock spin on a curve or a screw having a 9 to 3 o'clock spin. I would like to hear your or anyone's thoughts on this.
 
Jul 17, 2012
48
0
No question that ball has movement. Remember though she is one of the best and most gifted. I think (not for sure) that not to many at that level throw a screw ball. There might be more that have other pitches that have a little cut to them. My daughter Throws a very good rise ball that occasionally has some cut to it, she is a righty. Most right handers with good rise balls will have a slight curve more than a cut. I believe that at a young age you can learn a screw ball fairly easy and find some success. Unfortunately your success will be short lived imo. In our part of the world the changeup is almost a forgotten pitch. Everyone wants the most exotic pitch.. Up, down and change of speed, thats what most of the best men have done for years. To play the best 14 year olds and up you better be able to paint the black all day long with some sort of movement, change speeds without being detected and go up or down hard. Thats hard to be able to do at 11 or 12.. It takes a ton of monotonous, pain staking work. Or as I always told my daughter, maybe the softball fairy will visit tonight while you sleep, Haha.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Ken, Thanks for posting the video. Do you believe that Haeger's screwball breaks? I do and if you do, what spin is on the pitch and why does it break? My opinion is that the spin is the same as Rick Pauly's corkscrew curve which I would think is the same as Boardmember's curve. The difference is the axis of the spin. IOW if you are looking at the ball from the pitcher's perspective the dot that you see would determine the break. If the dot of the spiral spin is pointing directly back towards you, no break that's straight corkscrew spin. If you are throwing the curve then the dot will be to the right of center and opposite for the screw, the dot will appear to the left half of the ball, both from the pitcher's perspective. Of course the pitcher has to throw the ball on an angle, in the direction she wants the pitch to break. I'm asking this because I have never been able to throw much less teach a curve with the goal being a 3 to 9 o'clock spin on a curve or a screw having a 9 to 3 o'clock spin. I would like to hear your or anyone's thoughts on this.

It may drift, but more important, does the pitch work for her? The screwball--break or no break is an effective pitch. I've never seen a breaking screwball (other than a scrop.) I've seen very few good CB's or rises with backspin, but I still see pitchers getting the job done.
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Apologies--I only read and responded to the first line...

My way of learning and teaching is to see/hear something then try it on my own to see and feel the results. I only teach what I can replicate. If I can't do it, I don't teach it. The screw ball is one of those.

Before John Gay passed away, I started playing with a two-seam, inside tailing spin. I only saw him throw it a couple times in amazement. I tried it myself with a similar looking spin, but could not get the same drift he seemed to get. I haven't played with it since he passed.

When I was learning the palm up curve, I found that it it took me a few tries to get it to really move--even with flat spin. It took a combination of three feels/cues to get it to move well--at 3/4 speed. Same with the drop and rise. It took many, many reps to get them to "move" consistently.

How much of this effort is worth it? We see pitcher after pitcher get results with x, y and z pitches, but most look like the same semi-spiral spin. Why does a semi-spiral spin work for so many pitchers? One answer: Location, location location... The other aspect is that the motions that pitchers use for their pitches, aids in creating the perception that the pitches locate somewhere other than expected.

Watch WCWS replays of Ricketts' "crop duster" in slow-mo... What about Nelson's screw? What about Escobedo's rise? All three were touted by the announcers as effective pitches with "late, sharp, break." In the WCWS replays, none of these pitches did what the announcers reported. More importantly, they all seemed to be effective.

What is our take away? Teach exaggerated motions that get a perceived result, or teach a motion that achieves a true spin? I think the answer is tough. Hillhouse and others say that every pitch should look the same. Many others teach motions that are very different from pitch to pitch. I don't have the answer. If I did, I'd prolly find myself making instruction a full time gig!

I realize this doesn't answer the question and although I wish I could--I think that ultimately: each pitcher needs to develop an arsenal that works for her, constantly evaluate, and adjust as needed with hard work and experimentation to become the best they can be.
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
This is a great example of how a screwballer can be deceptive, whether or not the pitch "moves." Watch her motion in slow-mo. Her stride appears to go about 35 degrees off the power line and her down swing into release looks like the ball should hit the seam/crease in the mat way to the left:

 
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Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
Sorry to sort of hijack this thread, but that great clip Ken just posted made me think of the stride-relative-to-powerline discussion in another thread. It's quite obvious that "screwball" pitchers stride to their left, probably due mainly to the fact that a "screwball" doesn't generally break that much (and because they are trying to generate "screwball" spin). A main reason they stride to the left is to get a steeper angle on the pitch to give it the appearance of really breaking in. Release angular trajectory versus break due to spin. Now, what's my point with this?..... Do we really know where a RH pitcher who strides a bit to her right (right of the powerline) is going to throw the pitch and what pitch it will be??? It's not quite a clear as it is with the "screwball" pitch. At least it isn't to me.

I believe that if a screwball pitcher is striding to her left more on her "screwball" pitch than she does with her other pitches that it's more of a give-away (read) for the batter. I don't believe this is as true when a pitcher strides slightly to her right a bit more than she normally does. Why? Is she going to throw an inside riseball or an outside curveball or a changeup or a drop-curve? Not quite the same read as that screwball leftward stride as a give-away.
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Give away or not, it's still hard to hit! I had a riseballer tell me she was going to throw a rise. Even knowing and trying to hit the top of the ball, I still whiffed about 5 inches under!
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
...I believe that if a screwball pitcher is striding to her left more on her "screwball" pitch than she does with her other pitches that it's more of a give-away (read) for the batter. I don't believe this is as true when a pitcher strides slightly to her right a bit more than she normally does. Why? Is she going to throw an inside riseball or an outside curveball or a changeup or a drop-curve? Not quite the same read as that screwball leftward stride as a give-away.

True if she is facing the top 1% of the hitters. The reality is that most hitters, even what would be considered good hitters cannot hit a well thrown pitch if you told them about it ahead of time. Good hitters have the ability to capitalize on pitchers mistakes. Great pitchers make very few mistakes.

The real benefit of "making all of your pitches look the same" is consistency of mechanics. Consistent mechanics is the foundation of the trinity of pitching. Command, Movement, Velocity aka Spot, Spin, Speed. :)
 
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