Pitchers hips?

Buttermaker said:

So, then the question is - can we teach players how to use their core? Or at least train in a way to build core stability and dare I say strength? So, that when we ask them to perform a ballistic movement such as throwing or swinging - their core will activate subconsciously?

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The thing that interests me the most about using the hyperarch mechanic in the feet is that when you correct the linkage to the glutes, the glute response becomes automatic. For some people, the glutes work automatically when they drive. For others the glutes do not respond when they drive.

The sooner this point is conceded, the sooner we can develop evaluation criteria to divide athletes into subgroups:


I am absolutely certain that there are many, many kids who have dormant glutes. Right now we teach ALL the kids side-by-side as if they are on equal playing fields, but the truth is that kids from group 1 will never run or pitch correctly without getting to the root cause of why their glutes are not functioning correctly.

Buttermaker said:

The CT (core torque) is the timing in hitting. Pitching the timing is consistent - hitting it has to something that can adjust. There is nothing faster than a CT.

This image is of Pavel Tsatsouline geared up with sensors to measure core activity. It's possible to create two pulses to create powerful movement. Read up on Dr Stuart McGill as well. So maybe there is pulse of the core to start the drive out and another at or near the top of the circle to get the hip snap...

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I am not dissenting from the idea that the core engages. What I ask you to consider is could core activation be an automated response just as it is for the glutes?


My assertion is that with respect to throwing, running, pitching, etc glute activation should be a "no teach". Could it be that core torque should also be a "no teach"? I argue that it was likely a no-teach for most elite athletes, or they would espouse it when they discuss mechanics. People have been using their core correctly for thousands of years, why in 2017 are we having to tell kids to use it? I contend that the HA mechanism might the key to fixing the glute and the core responses.

javasource said:

Most look at movement as effort... or activation. Same thing with stabilization. Stability is not just strength... it's about effortless timing & recruitment. DE-activating muscles is a higher order skill than activating... and where true movement mastery takes place.

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You can tune a car to run with a servo motor on the cam shaft, but it's a lot easier with a timing belt...

javasource said:

You see a glute-activated movement. Truth is... you ask most of the people in all these gifs how they learned that move... and they'll not have a clue. Not because they can't participate in the conversation... but because they didn't train to "activate". Instead... at some point... the timing of their pitching movements became so natural for them... that they ADAPTED their movement strategy unconsciously.

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How many elite athletes run with terrible form? The same automated movements that make them throw with high level mechanics also makes them run with decent form even if they are big and slow.

The pitching and hitting elite have timing belts. Their glute and core activations work perfectly, on time, everytime. Some students however have a broken timing belt. The status quo for teaching them is to add and agument to try and synchronize a bunch of movements that should flow togetther automaticly. Instead I think that we should learn to fix the underlying problem.

In this element, I see rearward resistance lead to forward turning of the hips:




Edit: I guess I accidenly double posted this the first time. It's corrected no and due to gif limits, will be continued in the next post...

continued...

In this element, I see rear leg IR on a relatively unweighted rear foot:



Edit:

I pull hitting and throwing clips into a pitching discussion to serve as alternate mediums to demonstrate my point. If I posted a bunch of pitching only gif's, everyone would assume that the movements are a result of pitching instruction. To me the similarities in these movement patterns of three relatively unrelated actions indicates that there is an underlying set of mechanical linkages that makes this hip-torque specific movement pattern happen.

By establishing this, I hope to challenge us to step outside of pitching instruction to identify alternate ways of creating this movement pattern.

jryan15 said:

The thing that interests me the most about using the hyperarch mechanic in the feet is that when you correct the linkage to the glutes, the glute response becomes automatic. For some people, the glutes work automatically when they drive. For others the glutes do not respond when they drive.

The sooner this point is conceded, the sooner we can develop evaluation criteria to divide athletes into subgroups:

1. Those who require HA training
2. Those who would only marginally benefit from HA training
​

I am absolutely certain that there are many, many kids who have dormant glutes. Right now we teach ALL the kids side-by-side as if they are on equal playing fields, but the truth is that kids from group 1 will never run or pitch correctly without getting to the root cause of why their glutes are not functioning correctly.





I am not dissenting from the idea that the core engages. What I ask you to consider is could core activation be an automated response just as it is for the glutes?


My assertion is that with respect to throwing, running, pitching, etc glute activation should be a "no teach". Could it be that core torque should also be a "no teach"? I argue that it was likely a no-teach for most elite athletes, or they would espouse it when they discuss mechanics. People have been using their core correctly for thousands of years, why in 2017 are we having to tell kids to use it? I contend that the HA mechanism might the key to fixing the glute and the core responses.

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Huh? You want to teach HA, but not teach how to activate the core? Follow Dr McGill and witness the thousands of elite athletes he helped get back on the field or in the ring by training core activation. Or the average joe that just wants to walk again without pain.

How about this? Even though it is a sprinting tool can you see the various applications for this type of training?

https://www.weckmethod.com/articles/rmt-club-speed-training-technique-the-double-down-pulse

Sigh... I'm not saying don't train the core. I'm saying fix the linkage and the core will start to strengthen itself. Yes, targeted training would be better.

But if you do targeted training without fixing the linkage, it will do little good. This was my experience with glute strengthening. DD's glutes got really strong. They didn't work when she pitched or ran, but at least they were strong I guess...

jryan15 said:

The term overlap has been used extensively as a term to represent this movement pattern in hitting.

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The term birdie has mean used to describe many things, too... J. I am not discussing hitting... that's the point. I say "football" in Argentina, people are thinking something completely different. I am unaware of anyone on this board using the word overlap like this in the context of hitting... and my response was originally NOT to you... but to the poster who asked what it meant on HERE... a softball pitching board.

Admittedly, I don't see "overlap" used in kinesiology in either context that often. There are much more accurate descriptions of movement. As such, I'm not trying to comment on all of it's uses... just the use the poster was inquiring on.

jryan15 said:

I think this specific movement pattern is very similar to this one.

I bring them up because the movement patterns above (pelvic shift and rear leg IR) are very similar, and I believe their origination mechanism to be nearly identical.

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I think they are polar opposites. The one of the softball pitcher is INTERNAL ROTATION... the one with the hitter is EXTERNAL ROTATION.

Why? That's the difference between an open and closed chain movement... and resistance applied from the ground. I assume you recognize the grounds roll in adding resistance for "coil". I also assume you don't advocate "squishing a bug". If I am wrong, I apologize.

jryan15 said:

Lead/lag and chained/sequential implies the hip turns first and the upper body will turn later. I claim that the upper body does not turn, it gets turned. Does this make sense?

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In pitching, J... the upper body is going to turn. The key is to get the hips "in front of" the shoulders at stride foot contact. I'm not going to get into semantics... but I will stick by my assertation... as it "is what it is."

jryan15 said:

Again I claim these are not sequential movements. If anything, it was a forced kinetic chain...

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The kinetic chain is a sequential flow of energy and momentum...

jryan15 said:

You might not mean to, but you are completely minimizing the conceptual and physical difficulties that had to be overcome to produce that swing of mine that achieves "overlap". It is a culmination of many years of effort. If it is so easily brushed off as elastic energy from stretch, then by all means recreate it. What I did involved rear leg coil and pulling back throughout the launch. It will not be replicated without doing the same.

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J... you are right... I have no interest in minimizing your experiences. I've made it quite clear that I'm not really a fan of trying to marry every athletic movement under the sun to pitching, that's all. If I inject what I feel is humor to add a little levity into this conversation... I do so out of respect for you and your family. How you interpret that is up to you.

Not going to talk about your swing. If you're happy with it, Amen.

jryan15 said:

But I promise you this, all the lateral bounds, vertical jumps, and pistol squats in the world would NEVER make my DD's glute fire correctly. She jumped and ran differently than everyone else when she started and as well as after. She did however develop strong quads while everyone developed their glutes though.

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So, has the hyperarch activation done the trick? If so, great!

jryan15 said:

Your research is missing an element of foot strength...

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I don't know how to respond to this. It's quite broad-reaching of you to hypothesize what my research has/hasn't been... but rest-assured, I know about Mr. Xie. What we do against the ground and how we do it is critical... pretty sure I've taken that stand about a million times. I think you'll find that their are some pretty similar items in my posts... like striking patterns, big-toe kinematics, "quiet landings". I might not trademark them... but at some point, I need to stop talking about Lebron's curled toes and get to what people came here for... PITCHING. That's not a hit on you... just a decision I made. Sorry if I sold you short.

jryan15 said:

You want to talk about effortless...

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In the context of pitching, yes. Not hitting. If I did... you would see me regularly on those forums. For the reason that you're highlighting... many of those people take this stuff too personally... and I've already moved on from this conversation... out of respect for you.

jryan15 said:

I would like to change the ratio... If they don't understand it and the experts choose not learn it, we are leaving it up to chance that our students will get it.

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"Understanding"... is subjective, J.

jryan15 said:

I did talk about rear leg IR, and I would love to hear your feedback to what I said.

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See above.

jryan15 said:

Avoiding it by limiting movements is a cop out.

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Effective movement is all about efficiency and balance, J. Efficiency is all about maintaining the ratio of USEFUL work performed, compared to the energy expended to do the work.

I liken effective coaching to sculpting, not painting. Unfortunately, most people teach movement through addition... they just keep adding more paint. I chose to focus on taking unnecessary stuff away... not adding more. The more students and variety you surround yourself with... the more you start to recognize that elite movement is about creating the right environment for a student... by making them more efficient... and then getting out of the way.

Helping others develop movement skill is largely a matter of inhibiting the spread of neural excitement... rather than extending it.

jryan15 said:

This thread is about how to learn to fix it, not avoid it.

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No, J. This thread was about something completely different:

jackstarling said:

A friend of mine was a World Class Men's pitcher and is now helping several pitches in the area develop as a pitcher in their own right. One of the college age kids said her personal pitching coach told her not to try and drive into the front leg and turn her hips as women have wider hips and this can cause damage to her shoulder. As she doesn't turn or snap her hips, she is struggling to throw the rise at the college level. Has anyone ever heard of this? In talking with a number of the premier mens pitchers, the hips were what determined spin, velocity, etc. I have looked at videos of Jenny, Monica, Cat and they all seem to drive the back hip (right hip for a RH pitcher) into the front leg. Any thoughts? By the way, the personal pitching coach was a successful statewide pitcher, who threw a drop and change only, not a Michael White, Mark Smith or Chuck D'Arcy type of pitcher.

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Since then... it's become about overhand throwing, hitting, and glute activation. The dude simply wanted to know:

If failure to turn or snap the hips negatively impacts the rise? In my opinion, the hips need to be stabilized during brush contact... in order to properly articulate the spin on this pitch.

If turning the hips could cause damage to the shoulder? Mr. Pauly already responded to the health concerns... as did many other fine posters.

On a side note... the poster mentioned the notion that the hip determined spin/velocity. My answer to that is: INDIRECTLY. They can influence speed - both positively and negatively... and they can change the position of the hand on the ball, both positively and negatively.

Interesting direction this thread took.

jryan15 said:

Sigh... I'm not saying don't train the core. I'm saying fix the linkage and the core will start to strengthen itself. Yes, targeted training would be better.

But if you do targeted training without fixing the linkage, it will do little good. This was my experience with glute strengthening. DD's glutes got really strong. They didn't work when she pitched or ran, but at least they were strong I guess...

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And what I am trying gently lead you to is that if you train the core to activate you train the linkage. Look, I like the HA stuff but all it really does is solidify my beliefs that all movement is created in the middle and flows out. Getting the feet correct eliminates loss of energy on the bottom (distal) that flows from the middle (proximal) and back up.