Pitchers hips?

Most kids that don't get overlap (I call it "offset timing") have actually had the natural athleticism coached out of them. They have probably been taught a forced opening action that resulted in a 90 degree landing foot, a disconnected upper/lower torso (butt out), and almost zero hip rotation....thus no "offset timing".

Offset timing can be taught/learned but is not an overnight process.

Also, "offset timing" is one of the keys to speed.....note that Abbott and Ueno get significant "offset timing"...not to many throw faster than those two.

jryan15 said:

Being honest, teaching the overlap in pitching is VERY HARD . I beleive that most athletes who do "overlap" do so automatically as part of their bodies physiology not because of anything they were taught. I've taught myself and DD to overlap in overhand throwing and in hitting, but pitching has been a real challenge.

I think a lot of the automatic part of the motion ties into the glute activation that I discuss in the other thread. I think if we fix the underlying issue that breaks down glute mechanics, things like overlap will start to happen on their own. If your DD is fortunate not to be entirely quad dominant, I think that overlap will happen as long as we don't accidently coach it out of them.

DFP is light years ahead of everyone else in pitching mechanic instruction, but I think this particular subject has a lot of development left to go. Seeing as how most of the parents on the site have kids who tend to have decent athletecism, most of them will not need to dig this deep into this kind of problem.

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Rick Pauly said:

Most kids that don't get overlap (I call it "offset timing") have actually had the natural athleticism coached out of them. They have probably been taught a forced opening action that resulted in a 90 degree landing foot, a disconnected upper/lower torso (butt out), and almost zero hip rotation....thus no "offset timing".

Offset timing can be taught/learned but is not an overnight process.

Also, "offset timing" is one of the keys to speed.....note that Abbott and Ueno get significant "offset timing"...not to many throw faster than those two.

Click to expand...

Rick - when do you feel the core torques? I sense around top of the circle as a way to change direction (going up the circle to coming down) very suddenly and feel the front foot lands and then stabilizes the hip torque.

Thanks for response Java. Sorry that my aggravation was overcoming me the other day.

I guess my wordiness got in the way of the point that I was making.

javasource said:

In hitting, there is a coil and then an uncoil... I really hope we agree on this, at least...

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No, we do not agree on this. In the swing that I posted, there was NO UNCOIL. That's the point that I was getting at and why I view the hip patterns to be the same. I understand coil and uncoil and hip and leg movements. So I'll say it again, there was no uncoil in my swing!

Here is a quick description of what I was doing in the swing to generate that hip pattern:

1. I coiled all the way back until zero slop in my hip
2. I continued to pull back in the hip socket keeping it tight with zero slack
3. Then I turned the barrel using my upper torso (this is not a full descr., but don't get hung up here)
4. My barrel launch automatically made my upper torso tilt a little
5. As soon as my torso tilted, my rear leg was free to continue IR'ing
6. I pulled back in my hip socket through the entire swing

The motion described on item #5 is the over and around motion of the hip to the ball of the femur that is described at HI. By tilting, my rear hip went over and around the ball of the femur. The effect of this was that my rear leg free'd up and IR'd. The IR'ing of my rear leg grabbed my hip (zero slack remember), and the IR'ing rear leg turned my body through the zone without ever uncoiling.

The same thing happens when I throw with the mechanic.

This is why I am relating the hip movement patterns of these very different activities (throwing, hitting, and pitching)... I feel that if I can convince others that what I describe in steps 1-6 is real, we can look at the hip interaction in pitching a little differently as well.


I hope this makes sense. If so, please re-consider what I have been discussing. Maybe even re-read my posts with a new understanding of what I am describing...

Rick Pauly said:

Most kids that don't get overlap (I call it "offset timing") have actually had the natural athleticism coached out of them. They have probably been taught a forced opening action that resulted in a 90 degree landing foot, a disconnected upper/lower torso (butt out), and almost zero hip rotation....thus no "offset timing".

Offset timing can be taught/learned but is not an overnight process.

Also, "offset timing" is one of the keys to speed.....note that Abbott and Ueno get significant "offset timing"...not to many throw faster than those two.

Click to expand...

Thanks Rick for your input. I agree with you that a lot of atheltic movements get coached out of kids. Often by well-meaning, good hearted people trying to help. I was once one of those people.

Just to clarify for me, the hip movement pattern below is what you are calling "offset timing" right? I need to get on the same page so as to not confuse people with verbiage.





I've been referring to this as overlap, but I will pull away from this for the time being. I do hope to establish that this hip motion is a forced chain of movement and not the result of separate movements in time.

For reference, here is a link to a separate post on the foot hyperarch (HA) mechanism.

https://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/30687-fixing-sprinters-posture-using-foot-hyperarch-mechanic.html#post423537

"Offset Timing" is just the phrase that works for me.....I don't think it is a universally used description. The phrase "overlap" just doesn't put the description I want into my brain. It's totally a personal preference......sort of like open and close are just the opposite for me from what is typically thought.

jryan15 said:

Thanks Rick for your input. I agree with you that a lot of atheltic movements get coached out of kids. Often by well-meaning, good hearted people trying to help. I was once one of those people.

Just to clarify for me, the hip movement pattern below is what you are calling "offset timing" right? I need to get on the same page so as to not confuse people with verbiage.

I've been referring to this as overlap, but I will pull away from this for the time being. I do hope to establish that this hip motion is a forced chain of movement and not the result of separate movements in time.

Click to expand...

Bigtime Bump!