"Lead With Your Thumb"

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May 30, 2013
1,442
83
Binghamton, NY
I think "lead with the thumb" can be a decent over-correction cue for some pitchers.

example: my dd "gets" IR. she is palm facing forward over the top, with slight flexion in the elbow, and "stays inside the ball" (leads with the pinkey) down the backside... BUT she tends to STAY inside the ball at release, making it difficult to get true 12-6 drop spin. She's a natural "cupper" and getting her to get a thumb forward/fingers down position at the instant of release for a drop ball has been a struggle for her. We often give her the cue to get the thumb DOWN rather than "lead with the thumb" when working the Drop, but it is pretty similar cue to the OP. She does pronate forearm THROUGH release (as KenB stated, the instant of "thumb forward" should not be discernible in real-time) but the pronation happens a bit late, and her more "cupped" hand-wrist position are things shes been working to work-out of this particular pitch for a while now. Shes made great strides with it this off-season, but shes got a little ways to go. Throws a good "tumbling forward" ball when she wants to now, but its still a bit wobbly work-in-progress...

Here's a still from a recent vid I took of DD to illustrate. The image is at release. You can see her hand still "inside the ball" (thumb orientation is pointing about mid-way between HP and 3B), and her wrist position is a bit flexed and not inline with her forearm as it should be for a drop ball. Also release point is a bit too far forward, and better proximity would be preferred...
image.jpg
 
Last edited:

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
As Corley notes, cues are not wholesale fixes... really need to adjust with what the athlete presents to you. Too often we are too quick to present our opinion to an athlete... before they've presented theirs.

I/R lies outside of the kinetic chain in pitching. Optimal release strategy depends greatly on what you are attempting to accomplish in a given throw. For speed, you want mid-i/r release. For, overspin... you need a little more pronation of the forearm. Thumb forward/down works as a good cue for some... but you also need to take the cup out of the wrist as Corlay is showing... completely changes where the hand is against the ball.

Point being... I recommend you start corrections against her everyday underhand throwing mechanics. Understand those first... and the time you spend adjusting to those mechanics will be much more efficient. Lastly, the posture and general body angles a pitcher uses... GREATLY influence whip mechanics. Be sure those are in order, and support what it is you ask her to do.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,768
113
Pac NW
corlay,
Adding to JS's advice--Loosen up the lower arm. Think of it like a ball on a rope that's hanging from the elbow. Relax the wrist. Set the stage for whip to occur (like JS said) by getting the body into position for lock/brush/whip/IR to occur. Pull/adduct the back knee into the inside of the other. Drag the toenails. Once she figures this out, you can expect a bit more pop in your glove and the ball will seem to explode off the hip. Be ready!
 

shaker1

Softball Junkie
Dec 4, 2014
894
18
On a bucket
I think "lead with the thumb" can be a decent over-correction cue for some pitchers.

example: my dd "gets" IR. she is palm facing forward over the top, with slight flexion in the elbow, and "stays inside the ball" (leads with the pinkey) down the backside... BUT she tends to STAY inside the ball at release, making it difficult to get true 12-6 drop spin. She's a natural "cupper" and getting her to get a thumb forward/fingers down position at the instant of release for a drop ball has been a struggle for her. We often give her the cue to get the thumb DOWN rather than "lead with the thumb" when working the Drop, but it is pretty similar cue to the OP. She does pronate forearm THROUGH release (as KenB stated, the instant of "thumb forward" should not be discernible in real-time) but the pronation happens a bit late, and her more "cupped" hand-wrist position are things shes been working to work-out of this particular pitch for a while now. Shes made great strides with it this off-season, but shes got a little ways to go. Throws a good "tumbling forward" ball when she wants to now, but its still a bit wobbly work-in-progress...

Here's a still from a recent vid I took of DD to illustrate. The image is at release. You can see her hand still "inside the ball" (thumb orientation is pointing about mid-way between HP and 3B), and her wrist position is a bit flexed and not inline with her forearm as it should be for a drop ball. Also release point is a bit too far forward, and better proximity would be preferred...
View attachment 11430

Which type of drop is she throwing? Since she is a "natural cupper" would the roll over be easier for her to throw? Given my take on Java's post, and I could be way off base, feel free to correct, one drop may be more natural for her over the other.
 
Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
The only time the thumb leads is in that micro/nano second, at the moment of release. This is not detectable to the naked eye. As Ken said, it can only be seen in slo-mo....
If she's leading the pinky and getting 6/12 spin, this means she's got some I/R happening, and this should NOT be coached out of her.
 

osagedr

Canadian Fastpitch Dad
Oct 20, 2016
280
28
The only time the thumb leads is in that micro/nano second, at the moment of release. This is not detectable to the naked eye. As Ken said, it can only be seen in slo-mo....
If she's leading the pinky and getting 6/12 spin, this means she's got some I/R happening, and this should NOT be coached out of her.

Thanks Coach - I believe that (thumb lead at the instant of release as the hand turns) is exactly what is happening, and don't want to risk having it coached out of her. PC has done some really good work with DD but hopefully will be on-side for staying away from release, although if he is in the end a HE proponent then he probably has never seriously considered - or maybe even heard of - I/R or BI. An example of this is how he is telling her she is having her hips toward home plate too early (I can never remember if that's "open" or "closed") and that her hips should be facing 90 degrees (or maybe not quite) from home at release, and that the turn of the hips comes after release. But when I look at some of the stuff from the "model pitchers" thread, a number of them are pretty much hips fully open toward home at release, and several even have their plant foot basically pointed toward home.
 
Dec 5, 2012
4,143
63
Mid West
If he wants her to lead her thumb and to close her hips early.... you/dd may be a victim of HE mechanics.
Just because they don't point their elbow at the catcher post release, doesn't automatically make it not HE.
Remember, this should be about transferring energy out the arm.... not creating it with the arm!

The 4 "S" rules of correct pitching mechanics should be as follows!
1. Safety
2. Speed
3. Spin
4. Spot
Right out of the gate, it sounds like you're breaking rule #1
 

osagedr

Canadian Fastpitch Dad
Oct 20, 2016
280
28
PC is saying Lisa Fernandez is a model pitcher...is this a good thing or a bad thing or not really either?
 

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