Horseshoe Change, Speed and Spin?

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Sep 15, 2015
98
33
As an alternative to a flip change, my dd has been working on the horseshoe change that Boardmember described in the best changeup for small hands thread. http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/9274-best-change-up-grip-small-hands-2.html For those that have had success with this pitch -- or teach it -- is there a spin and speed difference (off the fastball/drop) that she should be trying to achieve? When she throws this pitch from "K," she usually gets outside breaking bullet spin (clockwise from the catcher's perspective) and it has a fair amount less velocity than a fastball release. But from a full motion, she gets basically 11-5 down-spin (from the catcher's perspective), and the pitch is only about 7 mph slower than the fastball, for a change from about 50 to 43 mph. Although she can locate this pitch pretty well (having just recently started with it), 7 mph does not seem like enough of a speed reduction. I plan to video to troubleshoot. Meantime, if anyone could describe what they see when catching this pitch when it is really working, I would appreciate it.
 
Jun 26, 2010
161
0
DD has been using this pitch for a couple years and learning it was based on the thread you mention. I have obsessed over the speed she throws it at because it appears to be about 7-8 miles per hour slower than her drop and gets a slower drop spin. This year I stopped worrying about it because I watched a Rich Balswick video where he mentions the change up being only 6 or 8 mph slower. DD's coach called more change ups this year and the speed difference kept hitters off balance. She had her best season pitching averaging 1 walk per game and striking out more by changing speeds and hitting her spots. And, she is not a speed demon more of a junk ball thrower.
 
Jun 12, 2015
3,848
83
Mine just learned the horseshoe change after throwing the flip change since the beginning. I've also noticed it seems to be faster than her flip change, which is a good 10-12 mph slower than her fast ball. I haven't clocked it yet though so I'm not sure exactly the difference.
 
May 13, 2012
599
18
DD throws it seen as little as 6mph to 12mph drop. Lot depends on her hand position at release. Some times figure behind it instead of beside. Pitch has pretty good down away movement sorta crop like.
 
Jun 12, 2015
3,848
83
DD throws it seen as little as 6mph to 12mph drop. Lot depends on her hand position at release. Some times figure behind it instead of beside. Pitch has pretty good down away movement sorta crop like.

My DD thought she invented a new pitch. She said it was a change up drop ball. I had her throw it and it sure looked like a change up drop ball (what do I know?). I had her show her PC and she said it was pretty much a horeshoe change, she just had to tweak her grip a little bit.
 

JAD

Feb 20, 2012
8,231
38
Georgia
Your goal should be 10+ MPH speed difference between her change up and fastball. The key to a good change up is the wind up and pitching motion needs to look exactly like the fastball. A pitcher can achieve this by modifying her grip on the ball, pushing the ball into the palm or her hand, and stiffening her forearm during the pitch to eliminates some of the "whip" from IR.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
The horseshoe:

Grip it on the "horseshoe" to start.
You must shut down the whip... i.e. use the hello elbow method of getting the hand on top of the ball at 9.
It is a lifting action off the rear leg.
The fingers will be on the outside of the ball at release.
You lift the release "under the table", off the rear leg (picture a table at the waist...)
Bring fingertips (should be pointing down) forward when lifting. This will result in only a forearm action (bend at elbow)... not a long arm. There is no push... OR Guiding of this ball.

If she can get it there comfortably at 40+ feet, she is doing it wrong. 100 effort is required to lift it... it should barely get there.

This is also a "brush" pitch. The spin is definitely a downward tumble.
 
Jul 22, 2015
851
93
Spin should look essentially like fastball spin. My dd has finally been able to slow her circle change down enough to be successful by making sure to emphasize pushing the ball down the back of the circle (hand on top of the ball), gripping it back into her palm, and squeezing the ball very tightly (I think this stiffens her wrist as well and helps eliminate whip). She also emphasizes keeping the circle of the grip under the ball at release which again helps to reduce whip.
 
Sep 15, 2015
98
33
Thank you to everyone for the responses. I know that there are many threads on this topic already, so I am very grateful that parents and coaches would take the time to share their experiences. Although I do not post frequently, I read and reference this site constantly, and with really nothing but the information on this board and a lot of work, my dd has gotten off to a very happy start as a player. Now she is off to practice ....
 
Feb 10, 2017
18
1
The horseshoe:

Grip it on the "horseshoe" to start.
You must shut down the whip... i.e. use the hello elbow method of getting the hand on top of the ball at 9.
It is a lifting action off the rear leg.
The fingers will be on the outside of the ball at release.
You lift the release "under the table", off the rear leg (picture a table at the waist...)
Bring fingertips (should be pointing down) forward when lifting. This will result in only a forearm action (bend at elbow)... not a long arm. There is no push... OR Guiding of this ball.

If she can get it there comfortably at 40+ feet, she is doing it wrong. 100 effort is required to lift it... it should barely get there.

This is also a "brush" pitch. The spin is definitely a downward tumble.
Is it a hard snap up or a relaxed follow through?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

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