Glute activation...

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Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
Just wanted to get a thread rolling discussing glute activation issues.

DD still can't get off the rubber before 3 o'clock... We've been digging in working on leg strength and stronger drive leg pushing for a long time, and we just can't move the needle much. Pushback and two step drills are great, but still there is something missing.

After a lot of prayer, research, watching video, talking about "feels", I am confident that DD has a definite "glute activation" problem. She is completely quad dominant and is getting minimal assist from the glutes during drive mechanics. Now that my eyes are opened to the issue, I see glute issues holding her back in sprinting and vertical leaps.

It seems to me that using quads to sprint off of the rubber is a slow movement pattern and degrades the pitchers ability to keep her legs from getting too spread out. Using the glutes to "unfold" yourself is a much more explosive movement and does not require long lumbering pushes off of the rubber.

We are now working on finding and utilizing the glutes when pitching. It is much harder to do than expected as it appears to be a part of a much larger, systemic problem.


I wanted to get a thread out as a thought starter to kick around. I think there are lots of girls who are not utilizing their glutes effectively, and they will not find higher levels of success until they change. I also think that it is a problem that will not correct itself on its own. We've worked on harder, explosive push-offs probably a hundred to two hundred times by now. Doing the same thing over and over isn't working.

FWIW I don't think there's much middle ground here. I think you use them or you don't. Yes, you can use them better, but if they are "off", they'll stay "off" till actions are taken.

It maybe time to re-think the mechanics of drive mechanics.
 
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Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
It maybe time to re-think the mechanics of drive mechanics.

By the way, I don't discount any of the info in the drive mechanics thread. It is precise and accurate....perfect. I just mean to open people's eyes to a potential problem that is bigger than pitching mechanics.

We've worked on getting into a sprinter's posture on the mound so many times.... A little while back it dawned on me that DD doesn't get into sprinters posture when she sprints :mad:!!! Aha at least... Some research into sprinting mechanics revealed a large subset of people who have glute activation problems. For those people, no amount of sprinting workouts will make their glutes start firing the right way. They need to isolate, strengthen, practice, and train to learn how to use them right.


Some simple things that might help isolate if there is a potential problem:

1. From standing start shifting the hips forward getting out over the front foot... For some they will feel it all quads. For others they will feel it in their backside...

2. Wall squats - Is it all quads or is some of the weight being shared by the backside.

3. Vertical leaps - Same questions. All quads or some glutes and quads?

4. General sprinting - Some people naturally have good running posture. Other's have terrible form even after lots of instruction to lean and get hips underneath.

5. After heavy running workouts - Do the quads or hamstrings get sore? This could be a sign of glute weakness.

6. Squats, deadlifts, cleans - When doing these lifts are you all quads and back? This could be a sign of glute weakness.

7. Walking up stairs (quads or glutes)...

8. Getting up from a chair (quads/hip flexors or some glutes)...

Some people naturally use the glutes in these things. Now they might be able to learn to do them better, stronger, and more efficiently. But for those who are use little to no glutes and use quads, hip flexors, and hamstrings instead will likely need special training to find their glutes again.

Unfortunately we are still looking for the right kind of training to fix it.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,133
113
Dallas, Texas
I think I understand what he is talking about.

The lower body is powered primarily by the quads and the glutes. The quads are the muscles on the front of your upper leg. The glutes are in your butt. Your body is supposed to use these muscles in synchronization.

If the quads become much stronger than the glutes, then the quads can do more work than the glutes. The body becomes accustomed to using the quads rather than the glutes, and in fact stops using the glutes. So, the glutes aren't "activated" in many physical activities.

A simple example is climbing the stairs.

If you climb stairs on the balls of your feet, then you are using your quads. Your glutes are not "activated". If you climb the stairs pushing up with the back half of your foot, then you "activate" your glutes.

One clue to whether the glutes are being activated is the butt. A muscular butt implies the glutes are being activated. A flat butt suggests that the glutes are not being activated.

Glute activation is not strength training, although strength training may be necessary.

I think the place to go to learn about glute activation are the running and sprinting sites.

Glute Strength | Runner's World

No Glutes = No results The Plague of the Mediocre Athlete -
 
Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
Thanks Sluggers, exactly the issue that I wanted to point out. I do not see this discussed in the fastpitch community yet it affects a sizable number of players "B" and below.

I also think a lot of pitchers who can't find sprinters posture on the rubber and tend to turn sideways and stick their butt out may have glute activation issues. Without their glutes, the quads just aren't mechanically configured to allow sprinters posture to happen effectively. When working on drive mechanics, the power void almost forces them to fall out of the pattern. Even with strong, focused efforts on doing the right thing the target drive pattern is elusive.


A clip would be HUGE here in understanding this problem you are describing.

Definitely appreciate your request Doug. I thought long and hard about what clips to include to demonstrate, but decided against it as I didn't want this thread to become about DD specific issues. I will try and start another thread on her for some more specific assistance.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
J,

How is she doing with pitching across her body? B is an A waiting to happen... this is the primary thing that is hurting her. Not trying to insinuate that you don't have a point... but that this might not be the best focus for her. Stability first... mobility later.
 
Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
Hi JS, I really didn't want to make this thread about DD. Also I do not wish to challenge you or any of the experts on this forum, so if it might seem that way, I sincerely apologize. Since she is a good example of my point, maybe we can keep this on track using her as an example.


How is she doing with pitching across her body?

We are working hard. We backwards chain with excellent brush interference a couple times a week. As soon as we get to the point of introducing stronger drive mechanics, her release and posture completely break. It's literally as discrete as turning on a light switch.

I think this clip illustrates what I'm trying to explain... Would we not all agree that she is broken at the end of the clip? I think the chances of recovering from this position into one that is conducive of BI and good release mechanics are slim to none (at least outside side of learning to replant like Kelly Barnhill).

20160419-pitching_2.gif


If we can concur that she is broken here...waayyy before release mechanics, why should we even consider her release? From this body position, I'm sure that even elite pitchers would struggle to recover to a strong release (at least without a serious glute contraction to straighten the body out). It's impossible to brush from here, her rear hip went AWOL.

To me it just seems intuitive to look at things that occur ahead of the last image of the GIF. Somewhere before, something goes terribly awry... We've worked on driving better, keeping the foot straight, going back straight, pushing hard, pushing quicker, wide stance, narrow stance, weight lifting, bribery, delayed arm swing, arm swing harder, no arm swing, etc but that darn position never goes away. Under extreme focus and intense pressure from me during practice, sometimes it gets a little better, but it does not go away. She never gets good shin and leg angles like the model pitchers.

??? Why ???

When I watch her run and jump now, I can see that she is missing the same explosive movement pattern... When I tell her to literally sprint off the rubber, it still looks like above :confused:. If she can't sprint with decent form for 10 yards, how can she sprint off of the rubber on command?

I think that if she had used her glutes, she would not get to the bent-at-waist / butt-out posture shown above. That form is not a byproduct of old HE pitching lessons either. Outside of maybe 1 month when she was 11, did she ever receive instruction to get sideways.
 
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Jun 18, 2012
3,183
48
Utah
Of course, Java will knock this one out of the park.

Can she work on keeping her feet, knees, front of hip (hips), shoulders, head square to the catcher as long as possible?

In my opinion, that left foot and knee are far too turned in the beginning.

I doubt she would ever remain to square upon landing.
 
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Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
Of course, Java will knock this one out of the park.

Can she work on keeping her feet, knees, front of hip (hips), shoulders, head square to the catcher as long as possible?

In my opinion, that left foot and knee are far too turned in the beginning.

We've worked on exactly that innumerable times. It has been a sole focal point of many sets and has been discussed and evaluated in possibly >75% of all sets for over a year. On more than one occasion we spent an entire session on it without throwing a ball.

I kind of think of it this way. IMO pitchers should get open from the top down. I.E. the shoulders' need to create a pathway for the arm and that will drive their body to open down to their hips. In DD's case, her drive mechanic opens her from the bottom up. I don't want to over analyze it, but I think it creates a scenario in which it takes too long to close back up before the arm comes down the back side and into brush.

Also the leg spreading motion of a long quadricep/calf push and a reaching stride leg, lends itself to heavy backwards tilt. Whereas a strong glute push (without allowing the upper body to sway back), will thrust the entire assembly forward more quickly, explosively, and with minimal rearward tilt.
 
Mar 23, 2011
492
18
Noblseville, IN
I made this a while back to compare launch posture of DD to some great pitchers. DD is the green in all the clips.

043016%20-%20posture.jpg


When DD trys to exceed this amount of tilt, she feels like she will literally fall on her face (I realize it's a dynamic position). Same thing when she runs. When coaches demand more tilt to improve speed, she cannot do it.

What I didn't know at the time I made it is that DD, feels all of the weight of this position in her quads :confused:. Well it turns out me too... I was demo'ing this to my wife and because it seems so ridiculously simple she stood up to try it. Now, my wife was once a very good sprinter, she did it and she felt it all in her backside. This was an aha moment.

Me and DD are ready to push with our rapidly tiring quads, yet my wife feels like she is ready to explode off of a starting line... Why do we feel this position in completely different ways???
 
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