A question, I'm not sure anyone can answer

Out in Left Field said:

The best thing is to skip the push phase altogether. Most kids won't do it if they are not told to do so by someone in efforts to get strikes or to follow some video they saw on line. Any kid, whether learning the proper way (ie, to throw it hard, not guide it) or not will have the same gains once they get going. Many outgrow and ignore the push instructions from the adults around them because the results will be there when they use the proper natural form. You can't baby them and have them throw half distance to a glove target because you can't see the results of that. You got to let them rip at full distance and often also into a net. The results will make sense to the kid.

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You must learn to crawl before you walk and you must learn to throw before you pitch. Quite possibly the worst advice and biggest mistake people make is having a beginner throw at full distance while focusing on results. I have found it extremely effective to throw at very close range typically into a tarp while focusing solely on the mechanics, specifically a natural IR whip. By removing the temptation to steer the ball they learn to relax and trust their mechanics. Once they have learned to throw using proper mechanics they are then and only then ready to learn to pitch.

riseball said:

... Once they have learned to throw using proper mechanics they are then and only then ready to......

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worry about results and pitch in games!

riseball said:

You must learn to crawl before you walk and you must learn to throw before you pitch. Quite possibly the worst advice and biggest mistake people make is having a beginner throw at full distance while focus on results. I have found it extremely effective to throw at very close range typically into a tarp while focusing solely on the mechanics, specifically a natural IR whip. By removing the temptation to steer the ball pitchers learn to relax and trust their mechanics. Once they have learned to throw using proper mechanics they are then and only then ready to learn to pitch.

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So true, especially with pitchers converting from push style to pull style. Push style, they really only worry about missing high or low. This is why it remains popular....it is easy to churn out a rec league pitcher in a couple of weeks. Of course, they get hammered and fade away around 12U if they don't make adjustments. On the other hand, at full distance without a solid mechanics base, a pull pitcher is going to miss left, right, high, low, and just about every way you can imagine. Even with a solid base, they are going to miss often. Being results orientated forces the pitcher to do whatever they have to in order to get the ball over the plate, including abandoning their whip.

Apparently if you just tell them to "whip the elbow", then everyone gets it instantly........at least that's what I've been told.

From what I understand, all children are born with the natural ability and skills necessary to whip a softball underhand with both velocity and accuracy as long as they aren't taught not to do it right.......and they also have the natural ability to leap and drag with perfect timing and posture......

Give them a ball......tell them to go around the circle and let go of the ball.....whip the elbow and voila, you have yourself a pitcher......

And there is never a need to break down the motion and practice any part of the skill outside of full circle elbow whipping.

Oh and by the way, I've never read the I/R stickies on this board....... they're totally useless, and merely an attempt for someone to sound smart about such a simple thing as the Fastpitch pitching motion.....

Move along.....Move along......Nothing to see here.

Pitching coaches over rated. Really over rated. Especially those who know what the hell they're talking about......

And you parents.....you know who you are.....You're the ones who are trying to learn as much about the skill as you can for your DD's sake......STOP IT.......YOUR KILLING HER CHANCES TO LEARN TO PITCH PROPERLY.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed with some of things some people here will buy into.......

BoardMember said:

Apparently if you just tell them to "whip the elbow", then everyone gets it instantly........at least that's what I've been told.

From what I understand, all children are born with the natural ability and skills necessary to whip a softball underhand with both velocity and accuracy as long as they aren't taught not to do it right.......and they also have the natural ability to leap and drag with perfect timing and posture......

Give them a ball......tell them to go around the circle and let go of the ball.....whip the elbow and voila, you have yourself a pitcher......

And there is never a need to break down the motion and practice any part of the skill outside of full circle elbow whipping.

Oh and by the way, I've never read the I/R stickies on this board....... they're totally useless, and merely an attempt for someone to sound smart about such a simple thing as the Fastpitch pitching motion.....

Move along.....Move along......Nothing to see here.

Pitching coaches over rated. Really over rated. Especially those who know what the hell they're talking about......

And you parents.....you know who you are.....You're the ones who are trying to learn as much about the skill as you can for your DD's sake......STOP IT.......YOUR KILLING HER CHANCES TO LEARN TO PITCH PROPERLY.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed with some of things some people here will buy into.......

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Glad to see you are still posting, but it would have been great to get actual input from you. From your expertise, how much of an increase have you seen "on average" from students when switching them from HE to I/R? Short term & Long Term? How about the biggest fish you ever caught(most improvement in MPH in short time)?

JJS said:

Glad to see you are still posting, but it would have been great to get actual input from you. From your expertise, how much of an increase have you seen "on average" from students when switching them from HE to I/R? Short term & Long Term? How about the biggest fish you ever caught(most improvement in MPH in short time)?

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When switching from improper to proper mechanics one can expect an increase in overall performance. There is no "average" or "expected" increase. Some see huge increases soon after picking up the feel of whipping the softball. Some are almost whipping anyway, and just a tweek away from gaining full advantage of it. Those get less MPH but better control and increases in confidence, which is just as valuable.

BoardMember said:

Apparently if you just tell them to "whip the elbow", then everyone gets it instantly........at least that's what I've been told.

From what I understand, all children are born with the natural ability and skills necessary to whip a softball underhand with both velocity and accuracy as long as they aren't taught not to do it right.......and they also have the natural ability to leap and drag with perfect timing and posture......

Give them a ball......tell them to go around the circle and let go of the ball.....whip the elbow and voila, you have yourself a pitcher......

And there is never a need to break down the motion and practice any part of the skill outside of full circle elbow whipping.

Oh and by the way, I've never read the I/R stickies on this board....... they're totally useless, and merely an attempt for someone to sound smart about such a simple thing as the Fastpitch pitching motion.....

Move along.....Move along......Nothing to see here.

Pitching coaches over rated. Really over rated. Especially those who know what the hell they're talking about......

And you parents.....you know who you are.....You're the ones who are trying to learn as much about the skill as you can for your DD's sake......STOP IT.......YOUR KILLING HER CHANCES TO LEARN TO PITCH PROPERLY.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed with some of things some people here will buy into.......

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I agree here. I like how the I/R PROGRESSIVELY breaks the pitching mechanics of the arm down. I do the same thing with basketball footwork in the post and infielders footwork and teaching kids to throw side arm etc! Why even respond! The contribution on the I/R thread is priceless.

riseball said:

You must learn to crawl before you walk and you must learn to throw before you pitch. Quite possibly the worst advice and biggest mistake people make is having a beginner throw at full distance while focusing on results. I have found it extremely effective to throw at very close range typically into a tarp while focusing solely on the mechanics, specifically a natural IR whip. By removing the temptation to steer the ball they learn to relax and trust their mechanics. Once they have learned to throw using proper mechanics they are then and only then ready to learn to pitch.

Click to expand...

My DD's throw into a tarp every day. Best thing they have done to help! There is no worry or desire to throw strikes, just throw hard into the tarp and focus on mechanics. Wish we would have done this years ago.

I remember a few years ago when I was an AC on one of the best 10U A teams in the state. My DD was the ace and she had one girl who was doing everything that she could to beat her out. Nothing against my DD, but I tried to help this girl become a better pitcher. This girl was very talented. She could play all the sports and be the very best at all of them. On the softball team she was probably the best at everything except for pitching. The strategy that her and her father seemed to adhere to was to put her on the rubber and let her figure out. For her, this was probably a successful strategy at everything else besides pitching. However, the way I saw it was that she was ingraining some very bad habits by throwing and trying to adjust to throw strikes instead of learning the proper motion. At least a few times I tried to interject and get her to work on the mechanics instead of just trying to pitch strikes. However, it was politely told to me that my help was not required, possibly, I thought because he thought I might be trying to hurt his DDs chances of overtaking my DD instead of trying to help her. Anyway, long story short, her pitching--if she pitches--still sucks. Fortunately for her she will probably be offered scholarships in basketball and volleyball and, maybe even, softball but not as a pitcher.

The moral: Pitching is a special and requires proper instruction even for very talented athletes.

I have found that most will throw the ball into their glove with excellent mechanics. But as soon as they start doing anything else, especially throwing to someone on a bucket things immediately change. I spend a good amount of time with the ball up at 9 and throwing into the glove, then the tarp using BM's excellent drills. I prefer the tarp over a net since it gives great feedback with a loud pop when things are going well. Until they master throwing into a tarp we do not progress to other activities. I do not let them throw to someone on a bucket until everything else is working well and we are focused on developing accuracy.