Change up (Change?)

Rocketech1 said:

I know you like to equate softball with baseball but there are many differences especially when it come to pitching. In baseball the smaller ball and longer distance and pitching from an elevated mound are all important variables that make baseball pitching different than fastpitch. The decrease in velocity for baseblall doesn't have to be as great to be effective as it needs to be for fastptich.

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Of course the two games have differences, but the laws of physics still apply to both.

But back to velocity differences between the FB and CU. I certainly hope someone with a lot of SB experience chimes in because I have no way of knowing what’s really taking place. But here’s what I don’t understand. A 60mph pitch takes .4943 seconds to go 43’. An 84 mph pitch takes .4929 seconds to go 60’. So if a baseball pitcher’s FB is 84 and his CU is considered “good” at 10% or roughly 76, why would a SB pitcher who’s FB is 60 need to be so much more than 10% difference?

Out in Left Field said:

I am not sure where the 25 percent came from. I have never heard it.

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As an example, pitching coach Gerald Werner has a site called pitchsoftball.com where he advocates the best change up is 25-35% slower than the fastest pitch. IME seems to be a good rule of thumb for most pitchers with changeups.

Scorekeeper - you seem to discount the size of the baseball is a huge factor why baseball pitchers can throw off speed very effectively with only say a 10% reduction in speed. While reaction time might be similar the fact that baseballs have a greater break because of the longer pitching distances and are much more difficult to hit because they are roughly half the size of a 12 inch softball. MLB pitchers can throw a 95mph fastball and then throw a 86mph slider and make the batter look foolish. In fastptich, you throw a 55mph fastball and then a 50mph changeup and you likely will get rocked as a pitcher. But a 40mph change up will get a lot of swing and misses.

Waldrop drop 62-63. Change up 40-42. Ricketts drop/curve 70. Change up 50. Both have excellent change ups. Both in the 30% differential range. My dd fb 50-52. Change 33-35. So I agree with rockets reasoning with 25-35% differential being accurate.

humpty said:

Waldrop drop 62-63. Change up 40-42. Ricketts drop/curve 70. Change up 50. Both have excellent change ups. Both in the 30% differential range. My dd fb 50-52. Change 33-35. So I agree with rockets reasoning with 25-35% differential being accurate.

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Agree with the 25-35% differential. My DD's FB is 56-58 with her CU 41-43. Mixing in her other pitches, this speed differential works really good for us.

Out in Left Field said:

I am not sure where the 25 percent came from. I have never heard it.

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That’s easy. It came from this post.

Rocketech1 said:

…Some absolutes are the change should be approx 25% slower than fastest pitch, …

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But let's say the usual pitching is around 52 mph for the age group, and the batters are used to it. If you throw 60mph and come back to 52 on the change, that's just what the batter can hit. So I think the more dominating you are perhaps the more trickery you need and the more speed you need to take off. However if you are a college hitter, if the CU is too slow, they can adjust, so you may want to be closer to the FB speed.

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So you believe it’s all about velocity?

It seems like the hot bats versus wood bats make a difference. I would think you could reroute/control the light softball bat easier than you can a heavy wood bat. And the softball bat has more sweet spots that allow mishits to be hits.

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It’s a shame that’s still true in SB and BB below the HS level.

Rocketech1 said:

As an example, pitching coach Gerald Werner has a site called pitchsoftball.com where he advocates the best change up is 25-35% slower than the fastest pitch. IME seems to be a good rule of thumb for most pitchers with changeups.

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Here again, I am at a loss because I don’t know the history of SB and how such things have come about. However, I would love to see the gun numbers of some of the very best FPSB pitchers to see if that percentage range holds true.

Scorekeeper - you seem to discount the size of the baseball is a huge factor why baseball pitchers can throw off speed very effectively with only say a 10% reduction in speed. While reaction time might be similar the fact that baseballs have a greater break because of the longer pitching distances and are much more difficult to hit because they are roughly half the size of a 12 inch softball. MLB pitchers can throw a 95mph fastball and then throw a 86mph slider and make the batter look foolish. In fastptich, you throw a 55mph fastball and then a 50mph changeup and you likely will get rocked as a pitcher. But a 40mph change up will get a lot of swing and misses.

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Evidently FPSB is a lot easier sport for hitters than I thought. If it’s that easy, why don’t the powers to be do something with the bats like BB did with BBCOR?

Scorekeeper said:

Perhaps that commonplace in SB, but it sure seems to me that there’s something out of whack with that “absolute”.

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For younger, 10U/12U/14U levels of play,
personally, I like the CU more like 15-20% slower.
Never been a fan of the big, loopy CU you see from a lot of young pitchers (typically a flip-change); the release angle needs to be too high to get a called strike.
Rather would have a low pitch that starts belt-high but drops into the dirt, or at least hits the back of the plate for a swing/miss, and easily adjusted higher to nip the bottom of the zone when needed...

In my experience the spin is just as important as the speed. Both my DDs f/B upper 50s C/U upper 30s,but we emphasize the spin as much as any other movement pitch. when the batters cant see the seems it takes them just that much longer to pick up the change. Makes a big difference in how effective they are. Plus you do get some movement once it reaches the plate. spin is roughly 3-9.same as their crop more or less with a release that looks almost identical.

bucket pinata said:

In my experience the spin is just as important as the speed. Both my DDs f/B upper 50s C/U upper 30s,but we emphasize the spin as much as any other movement pitch. when the batters cant see the seems it takes them just that much longer to pick up the change. Makes a big difference in how effective they are. Plus you do get some movement once it reaches the plate. spin is roughly 3-9.same as their crop more or less with a release that looks almost identical.

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A 59mph FB and a 36mph CU is about a 40% velocity difference. I guess I’m just totally unaware of how anyone could throw any kind of ball 40’ at that velocity where it wouldn’t have a huge arc. I’m not saying it can’t be done or isn’t true, just that it doesn’t exist in my experience. Live and learn I guess.

bucket pinata said:

In my experience the spin is just as important as the speed. Both my DDs f/B upper 50s C/U upper 30s,but we emphasize the spin as much as any other movement pitch. when the batters cant see the seems it takes them just that much longer to pick up the change. Makes a big difference in how effective they are. Plus you do get some movement once it reaches the plate. spin is roughly 3-9.same as their crop more or less with a release that looks almost identical.

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I find that a good spin on a CU really adds to its effectiveness. I've seen batters totally mystified by a good spinning CU.