Specific grip for a drop ball???

We are going to delve in to the world of "movement pitches" and are wondering if there is a specific grip for a drop ball? I know that proper IR should result in some drop but am wondering if a grip will add to it. Which drop is easiest to learn and does not completely alter the use of IR mechanics...? Peel drop or rollover drop? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Boomers you may remeber the posts by a guy that went by the name xpitcher on here? He advoacted for a peel moving the thumb from the underneath (4 seam grip) to the side in between the laces. I think in the model grips there are pictures he posted.

Thanks Inde. I completely forgot about that thread. With that being said, does anyone have any beginning drills for the drop ball? Something to get started?

Boomer
My preference is that the same grip be used for the fastball, dropball, and change up......fingers across the four seams.
(Will post another view as soon as the system allows.)

Thanks for the great picture Rick!! Would you have a minute to discuss any differences in release location and arm positioning vs. simply a fastball? She was originally taught a peel but had a bowling arm style. Now that we have transitioned to I/R we are wondering about the best way to work toward a drop ball again. Thanks for any help!!

Boomers,

Really sorry I didn't get right back to you on this. Lizzy deserves a quicker response!!! Rather than email you this, I might as well just post it here... as I'm sure a few other people may benefit from it.

Her recent time spent with Kelsey Stevens might have her wanting to throw a peel as Kelsey throws a mean one! But, IMO, Lizzy would benefit more with the roll than the peel... as I'm really familiar with her mechanics... and it's relatively complementary to her existing style.

Think of this pitch differing from her fastball in that we use the internal rotation to work UP THE BACK of the ball. While some will tell you that your hand needs to be this way or that way... (and to do static counter-clockwise door-knob turns with a horizontal hand... blah) don't stress getting her hand oriented AT ALL (in the actual release). Hand position is a result of what she'll get her body to do... and the forearm. We'll look at hand positions before and after release... that's good enough.

As always, Boomers, make sure you understand this... and try this stuff... before teaching it to her. You'll do fine. She's in good hands. I'm just going to type... so there's no order of preference with what I'll list below... just typing it as it comes to mind.

1) Follow-through. Rather than your DD using her beautiful hand-to-target follow-through, you'll want to encourage her to work her hand up, over, and down the ball. Not saying that you actually work the hand over the top or down the front of the ball... cause that's absolutely impossible... but many girls I work with benefit from that perceived feeling. I tell them to 'Drop' the hand... in sort of an exaggerated palm-down finish (fingers to the ground). Again, this 'dipping-style' finish is a feel... you'll see it below in the first example.

2) Palm-Up... not sideways. Many girls that I get that purport some type of roll drop, heavily 'chicken-wing'. They internally rotate too soon... and the elbow shoots outward... abnormally. Their spin is abysmal and the ball doesn't drop. Hold that palm-up feel. As you know with Lizzy, this means you need to keep her shoulder line open during the adduction sequence. You also know that the pronation reflex of release is quickest when stretched (the secret to good spin is good I/R & Pronation). This is key to this pitch and spin rate... the quicker the reflex, the better she'll 'work up the back of the ball'.

3) Posture. IMO, this pitch is a 'posture' pitch. The front shoulder must be a little lower than the rear (throwing) shoulder during release. Rather than throw this with just a lean... tell her to SLIGHTLY lift the back of the throwing shoulder during release. This will change the release point elevation... which really helps the ball get on the plane a good drop ball needs to be (think high to low). Some girls get the front shoulder down... some get the rear up... no biggie. Whatever cue works for her... but make no mistake... the roll definitely has some shoulder line tilt.

4) Connected. This shrug of the rear shoulder... or dip of the front shoulder... needs to be connected to the rest of the body. Her rear leg should not be pinned to the ground... and she should NOT be heavily bent forward at the waist. In fact, you'll find that many great drop ball pitchers have a 'shoulder shrug' that lifts the rear foot. Many of them have an appearance of a lift or even a slight jump AFTER release. That's a good sign, IMO... it tells me that the entire body is influencing the pitch in a connected fashion... rather than bent up like a pretzel.

5) Stride-length. Lizzy's stride keeps getting longer. This is perfectly normal (and good for her)... but with this pitch, jumping out of the circle might work against her. I'd tell her to get her stride foot down super fast. "Out... then DOWN". This will shorten her stride a HAIR... but most importantly... allow her to get into a VERTICAL posture into release... which is a large part of this pitch. If her front leg gets out too far... unpinning the rear leg gets more and more difficult.

6) Open, not closed. As noted earlier, try to stay open on this pitch, much like her recent focus. Although many will teach this pitch 'more closed' than 'open'... IMO, the closing we see in this pitch is a result from what our posture and arm momentum are creating. We know (you, me, Lizzy)... that if she closes too early... her palm will turn out.. and this will really slow down her ability to quickly pronate and spin 'up the back of the ball'. Staying open longer... and keeping palm-up... are the two things that ALLOW us to get 'up and over' it so quickly.

7) Yes... thumb position at release is different. On a FB (RHP)... it's more to 3rd (fingers inside)... and with this pitch it's a little more forward. I tell you this... so you know. It's not accomplished by I/R'ing early. Again, I see this as a result... not a method. Some have lots of success teaching thumbs with this pitch... but I'm not one of them (just my opinion).... but as I'm sure some may tell you this... I thought I'd point it out.

8) The axis. Don't go crazy trying to get what many refer to as the perfect 6-12 axis, incorrectly. Get a solid bar out of that line... not a wobble. If this means adjusting the grip a hair... fine. Experiment. Don't lose too much sleep over an axis that is parallel to the line the ball is actually traveling on. Instead, get a well-formed line... even if it's turned inwards towards the batter. If you draw an axle through a still-pic of her spin orientation... is that axle parallel to the ground? If you answered yes... perfect. It doesn't matter which way that stripe is turned... As long as the 'axle' is parallel to the ground - then you're spinning 6-12... and the ball will drop.

Here's an example of two pitches... from the pitchers perspective. Both are 6-12.. and both have an axis that is parallel to the ground. Unfortunately... too many people waste countless hours trying to get the first one. The second one is quite common... and just as effective:



9) Grip. I like the four-seam grip... but as I just said... don't obsess offer the perfect grip... the spin and movement it creates is what matters. If you've ever played around with grips, you'll notice that the 2-seam is quite unique... in that I've always noticed a little more inward movement... or tail... if you will. I like this little modification... as it helps some girls 'relocate' their pitch when needed. If using the 4-seam... try to get those seams turning over one another... meaning... experiment with the grip as needed.

Anyway... just a few things to help you throw the roll drop. Here are a couple gifs of pitchers throwing some drops (the last one is the peel from Kelsey. I'm pretty sure you'll see the glaring difference between these two pitches):

Roll... what I'd recommend for Lizzy... and more of an enhanced I/R & posture pitch:


Peel... more of an 'arm & finger up' pitch:


And no... Kelsey is not throwing HE. And no, neither of them are 'closed' at release... just thought I'd toss that in there... use Kinovea on a PC or Omni-Gif on an Android to slow these gifs down... and you'll see what I mean.

As far as drills... nothing special. Same old, same old. 9, liberty, show-it, walk-throughs, etc.. Don't get all into one-leg stuff... or spinners, etc. Just grab a bucket of balls, show her the 'body english', and get to throwing. Walk-throughs... with less emphasis on stride length are helpful... especially when you allow her to momentum to 'carry her forward'. A good walk-through that makes you take a step forward will be helpful to her... as it will show her how to get her body mass forward, a requisite for this pitch.

Best, ~JS

Java! Man! Those pitchers get great movement! How long does it take a 12u pitcher to learn how to throw a drop effectively? We been trying to learn the turnover. Not getting much movement. What is the easiest drop to learn how to throw?
When can I bring my DD over, so that u can teach her how to throw that same drop! U r right around the corner.
We r ready to make that 30 hour drive!

Lol!

sbcowboy said:

How long does it take a 12u pitcher to learn how to throw a drop effectively?

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This depends on the pitcher. A diligent student can learn the pitch in one session... but actually having it 'game ready' will take most a couple months.

We been trying to learn the turnover. Not getting much movement.

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I'd have to see it. Send me a vid from behind of C throwing it... and one from the side.

What is the easiest drop to learn how to throw?

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That's a matter of opinion... but as far as consistency, I have better succes with the roll vs the peel. Truthfully, I prefer the in-cut and curve over these two pitches... but if I had to choose, I'd take the roll over the peel.

When can I bring my DD over, so that u can teach her how to throw that same drop! U r right around the corner.
We r ready to make that 30 hour drive!

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Mi casa, tu casa. Anytime.

The peel tends to get a solid following with younger pitchers... as it really is more of an off-speed pitch. Younger pitchers will end up mistaking gravity drop for spin drop... and as they grow, will notice that their peel becomes less effective. Balls thrown in the lower 40's are going to see the most gravity drop. Any pitch will... even a rise. Take a look at Waldrop's "wall-change". That's a 40 mph pitch, that literally falls off the table. Point being, learn to spin it... because a gravity drop may be effective now... but if you bump that same pitch into the 50's... the gravity effect significantly decreases... to the point where they start hanging lots of peel pitches. For this reason, the revfire really helps quantify and qualify how well a pitcher is throwing either pitch.

Java, excellent posts...thank you! The whole how am I going to get my dd to get the exact 12-6 spin with the axis totally in-line with the catcher is one of the main reasons I shied away from palm-up ball to the sky at 9 using complete IR a couple years ago. I should have asked more questions at the time so that was my bad. Anyway, dd is back to working on IR with help from all the good people here at DFP!

Hey Boomers...maybe we can car pool and go see Java together. Heck, we might as well just leave Java's and head to Rick's and BM's...lol!!!

Boomer Sooner!