Specific grip for a drop ball???
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javasource
6-4-3 = 2
Added some notes above...
- May 17, 2012
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Thanks, the light bulb finally came on. No more knob turning.
Turning a doorknob down... like on a corkscrew curve... is exactly opposite, and IMO, a decent cue... because of what it does to the forearm orientation. To get the fingers quickly up the back of the ball
Java, I guess this ^^^^ is what I'm picturing as turning a doorknob or like you said...going from palm-up at 9 to quickly getting the fingers up the back of the ball. I should have read GS's post a little better but that still seems like a doorknob turning action.
Okay...as I was typing this I went and turned a round doorknob and see that caused my wrist to extend by the way I grabbed the doorknob. Java...is this the same thing you are explaining? I wasn't thinking about this and that's not what I would recommend.
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javasource
6-4-3 = 2
Yeah... as you twist upward the wrists extends. If you've ever seen the spinners (the hockey puck things), you'll see people trying to drill turning the doorknob with fingertips away from the body... to me that's how you turn a doorknob. Admittedly, I've used the expression in-person... but on-line... you run the risk of someone literally performing this motion... and as Rick's video shows, the thumb is not oriented just forward... it's also pointing down... not away. So, as such, I don't spend much time twisting doorknobs... as, IMO, it doesn't occur.
This is why I usually get so detailed in my posts... leaving too much room for interpretation can suprisingly lead to completely different motions. This is also the reason I prefer working on movement pitches in person.
Glad you gave it a try.
Well, NorthMS, I guess if I had to name it I would call it a "snapover dropball". It has the violent snap of an I/R fastball with a slight up/over finger and wrist action.....even though 95% of the up/over finger/wrist action happens after release.
I absolutely hate to use the term "roll drop"......it has the connotations Java Source indicates about turning a door know which would cause the wrist to bend and extend away from the thigh....very difficult to do and very poor energy transfer efficiency.
So does everyone agree we call it a snapover drop or is there a better description? I am not wed to this description but don't have a better one.
I absolutely hate to use the term "roll drop"......it has the connotations Java Source indicates about turning a door know which would cause the wrist to bend and extend away from the thigh....very difficult to do and very poor energy transfer efficiency.
So does everyone agree we call it a snapover drop or is there a better description? I am not wed to this description but don't have a better one.
Rick! Thanks for posting the video. It is very helpful! I like the renaming of the dropball. It is a better description of what is happening at release.
Java, Can the snapover drop release b the same as the I/R release where u get a 7/1 spin except u r snapping the release harder than normal?
When u throw a fastball with I/R, does it have a 7/1 spin? Before I/R (push down), DD could spin a 6/12 very time. Now she has trouble getting it to spin that way. If u need a 6/12 spin with I/R, do u pronate after releasing the ball w/ a 6/12 spin? This is the reason we were trying to get away from the peel.
Should a pitcher be able to throw both the peel and snapover?
I hope this makes sense.
Java, Can the snapover drop release b the same as the I/R release where u get a 7/1 spin except u r snapping the release harder than normal?
When u throw a fastball with I/R, does it have a 7/1 spin? Before I/R (push down), DD could spin a 6/12 very time. Now she has trouble getting it to spin that way. If u need a 6/12 spin with I/R, do u pronate after releasing the ball w/ a 6/12 spin? This is the reason we were trying to get away from the peel.
Should a pitcher be able to throw both the peel and snapover?
I hope this makes sense.
Thanks. DD had a coach watch her pitch and asked what kind of drop ball she throws. She replied "I don't know."
She said, "I just throw it and it breaks down." On the ride home, she asked me what kind she throws, I replied "I don't know." 
JS,
When time allows, can you update the gifs in this post?
Thanks!
When time allows, can you update the gifs in this post?
Thanks!
Boomers,
Really sorry I didn't get right back to you on this. Lizzy deserves a quicker response!!!
Her recent time spent with Kelsey Stevens might have her wanting to throw a peel as Kelsey throws a mean one! But, IMO, Lizzy would benefit more with the roll than the peel... as I'm really familiar with her mechanics... and it's relatively complementary to her existing style.
Think of this pitch differing from her fastball in that we use the internal rotation to work UP THE BACK of the ball. While some will tell you that your hand needs to be this way or that way... (and to do static counter-clockwise door-knob turns with a horizontal hand... blah) don't stress getting her hand oriented AT ALL (in the actual release). Hand position is a result of what she'll get her body to do... and the forearm. We'll look at hand positions before and after release... that's good enough.
As always, Boomers, make sure you understand this... and try this stuff... before teaching it to her. You'll do fine. She's in good hands. I'm just going to type... so there's no order of preference with what I'll list below... just typing it as it comes to mind.
1) Follow-through. Rather than your DD using her beautiful hand-to-target follow-through, you'll want to encourage her to work her hand up, over, and down the ball. Not saying that you actually work the hand over the top or down the front of the ball... cause that's absolutely impossible... but many girls I work with benefit from that perceived feeling. I tell them to 'Drop' the hand... in sort of an exaggerated palm-down finish (fingers to the ground). Again, this 'dipping-style' finish is a feel... you'll see it below in the first example.
2) Palm-Up... not sideways. Many girls that I get that purport some type of roll drop, heavily 'chicken-wing'. They internally rotate too soon... and the elbow shoots outward... abnormally. Their spin is abysmal and the ball doesn't drop. Hold that palm-up feel. As you know with Lizzy, this means you need to keep her shoulder line open during the adduction sequence. You also know that the pronation reflex of release is quickest when stretched (the secret to good spin is good I/R & Pronation). This is key to this pitch and spin rate... the quicker the reflex, the better she'll 'work up the back of the ball'.
3) Posture. IMO, this pitch is a 'posture' pitch. The front shoulder must be a little lower than the rear (throwing) shoulder during release. Rather than throw this with just a lean... tell her to SLIGHTLY lift the back of the throwing shoulder during release. This will change the release point elevation... which really helps the ball get on the plane a good drop ball needs to be (think high to low). Some girls get the front shoulder down... some get the rear up... no biggie. Whatever cue works for her... but make no mistake... the roll definitely has some shoulder line tilt.
4) Connected. This shrug of the rear shoulder... or dip of the front shoulder... needs to be connected to the rest of the body. Her rear leg should not be pinned to the ground... and she should NOT be heavily bent forward at the waist. In fact, you'll find that many great drop ball pitchers have a 'shoulder shrug' that lifts the rear foot. Many of them have an appearance of a lift or even a slight jump AFTER release. That's a good sign, IMO... it tells me that the entire body is influencing the pitch in a connected fashion... rather than bent up like a pretzel.
5) Stride-length. Lizzy's stride keeps getting longer. This is perfectly normal (and good for her)... but with this pitch, jumping out of the circle might work against her. I'd tell her to get her stride foot down super fast. "Out... then DOWN". This will shorten her stride a HAIR... but most importantly... allow her to get into a VERTICAL posture into release... which is a large part of this pitch. If her front leg gets out too far... unpinning the rear leg gets more and more difficult.
6) Open, not closed. As noted earlier, try to stay open on this pitch, much like her recent focus. Although many will teach this pitch 'more closed' than 'open'... IMO, the closing we see in this pitch is a result from what our posture and arm momentum are creating. We know (you, me, Lizzy)... that if she closes too early... her palm will turn out.. and this will really slow down her ability to quickly pronate and spin 'up the back of the ball'. Staying open longer... and keeping palm-up... are the two things that ALLOW us to get 'up and over' it so quickly.
7) Yes... thumb position at release is different. On a FB (RHP)... it's more to 3rd (fingers inside)... and with this pitch it's a little more forward. I tell you this... so you know. It's not accomplished by I/R'ing early. Again, I see this as a result... not a method. Some have lots of success teaching thumbs with this pitch... but I'm not one of them (just my opinion).... but as I'm sure some may tell you this... I thought I'd point it out.
8) The axis. Don't go crazy trying to get what many refer to as the perfect 6-12 axis, incorrectly. Get a solid bar out of that line... not a wobble. If this means adjusting the grip a hair... fine. Experiment. Don't lose too much sleep over an axis that is parallel to the line the ball is actually traveling on. Instead, get a well-formed line... even if it's turned inwards towards the batter. If you draw an axle through a still-pic of her spin orientation... is that axle parallel to the ground? If you answered yes... perfect. It doesn't matter which way that stripe is turned... As long as the 'axle' is parallel to the ground - then you're spinning 6-12... and the ball will drop.
Here's an example of two pitches... from the pitchers perspective. Both are 6-12.. and both have an axis that is parallel to the ground. Unfortunately... too many people waste countless hours trying to get the first one. The second one is quite common... and just as effective:
9) Grip. I like the four-seam grip... but as I just said... don't obsess offer the perfect grip... the spin and movement it creates is what matters. If you've ever played around with grips, you'll notice that the 2-seam is quite unique... in that I've always noticed a little more inward movement... or tail... if you will. I like this little modification... as it helps some girls 'relocate' their pitch when needed. If using the 4-seam... try to get those seams turning over one another... meaning... experiment with the grip as needed.
Anyway... just a few things to help you throw the roll drop. Here are a couple gifs of pitchers throwing some drops (the last one is the peel from Kelsey. I'm pretty sure you'll see the glaring difference between these two pitches):
Roll... what I'd recommend for Lizzy... and more of an enhanced I/R & posture pitch:
Peel... more of an 'arm & finger up' pitch:
And no... Kelsey is not throwing HE. And no, neither of them are 'closed' at release... just thought I'd toss that in there... use Kinovea on a PC or Omni-Gif on an Android to slow these gifs down... and you'll see what I mean.
As far as drills... nothing special. Same old, same old. 9, liberty, show-it, walk-throughs, etc.. Don't get all into one-leg stuff... or spinners, etc. Just grab a bucket of balls, show her the 'body english', and get to throwing. Walk-throughs... with less emphasis on stride length are helpful... especially when you allow her to momentum to 'carry her forward'. A good walk-through that makes you take a step forward will be helpful to her... as it will show her how to get her body mass forward, a requisite for this pitch.
Best, ~JS
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