Limit number of pitches for a pitcher?

PEPPERS said:

I did not mean that the extra 3 feet is going to add a lot of additional stress to her pitching motion although I do suspect to see some maybe. I’ve heard that a number of great pitchers at 40 feet have been average or less at 43 feet. I’ve even heard of a few who just can’t seem to adjust. One problem is that the extra 3 feet is a big advantage to the hitters and it’s going to take more pitches to get fewer outs.

I tend to agree with slugger that even though the motion is close to perfect and the hours are put in on training there has to be a limit. You need to listen to your body and the pain factor, the pain is there for a reason. I want to make sure I error on the side of caution with my 15 YO. She would have her arm fall off before she would admit she could not go on.

Halskinner I am new on the form, from what I’ve seen you have a number of great suggestions and good advise I certainly don’t have the experience you have as a coach.
My daughter has pitched 4 and 5 games a day and I don’t think that is the best thing for her development.

Great advise everyone, thanks for your all the suggestions.

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Peppers, I was simply giving some examples of my students and their experiences. One thing I learned MANY years ago; If you only practice a half hour at a time, that's almost exactly how long you will be able to pitch for in any game, before you show signs of fatigue. Continue pitching after that point, you stand a good chance of getting injured.

Pitching 30 minutes 4 times a week DOES NOT mean that you can pitch for 2 hours straight (as in back-to-back games). Many people, even coaches, think it does.

You do what you think best for your own daughter and decide exactly what point of practicing is best for her to attain. I would suggest doing that if you want to reduce the possibility of injury.

Hal

halskinner said:

Peppers, I was simply giving some examples of my students and their experiences. One thing I learned MANY years ago; If you only practice a half hour at a time, that's almost exactly how long you will be able to pitch for in any game, before you show signs of fatigue. Continue pitching after that point, you stand a good chance of getting injured.

Pitching 30 minutes 4 times a week DOES NOT mean that you can pitch for 2 hours straight (as in back-to-back games). Many people, even coaches, think it does.

You do what you think best for your own daughter and decide exactly what point of practicing is best for her to attain. I would suggest doing that if you want to reduce the possibility of injury.

Hal

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Hal - does it matter during an inning that pitcher may only pitch 20 pitches and sit on the bench for 15 minutes between halves of innings factor into whether or not a pitcher gets tired in 30 minutes? During practice, my DD will be pitching almost continuously for 30 to 45 minutes.

SoCalSoftballdad said:

Hal - does it matter during an inning that pitcher may only pitch 20 pitches and sit on the bench for 15 minutes between halves of innings factor into whether or not a pitcher gets tired in 30 minutes? During practice, my DD will be pitching almost continuously for 30 to 45 minutes.

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Hey SoCal,

Keep the arm and shoulder warm, even on days that are not cold. Even if it means only keeping the throwing arm and shoulder in the jacket and the other side outside the jacket. Keep it warm, even if that side perspires a little.

The smaller muscles in the hand and in the fingers will be the first to get tired, normally. If they start making a fist a few times between pitches,that is a sign they are getting tired.

She can probably pitch for the same amount of pitches she throws in practice before you worry about it. Again, the amount of off-speed and slow pitches can have a huge effect on how long a pitcher can last.

Every kid is different and so is their work ethics.

Every coaches ethics are also different. Some believe a pitcher can only be successful if they throw EVERY pitch at the fastest speed they can possibly throw. In my opinion, those coaches are idiots.

Thanks halskinner for all your post.

The things we experienced last year was as we got late into the season she lost some velocity, the coach called mostly fastball, screwball and change up. She began to lose the effectiveness of her other pitches most notably the curveball (it took months to get it back like it was).

Summer ball ended and we started High School ball (Georgia plays in the fall), she pitched 2 games and tore a calf muscle and was out for the remainder of the year. The day it happen she ran 3 miles pitched a 7 inning game and against my advise went to an hour pitching lesson. On the way home she advised that her calf muscle was hurting a little, the next morning she could not put weight on it.

During the off season we try and pitch every other day this includes wrist snaps, some weighted ball, light balls to increase arm velocity. The indoor facility we were using closed so it’s difficult to find a place to practice. She also runs, does sit ups, push ups, and arm curls.

According to the American Journal in Sports Medicine doctors are seeing an increase of arm injuries in windmill pitchers due to over use, comparable to injuries in over hand baseball pitchers.

My thinking was to limit the number of pitches and replace it with other physical exercise.

Frankly I would like to see the governing bodies of softball starting with the ASA put guidelines and limitations in place to restrict the number of pitches a pitcher is allowed to throw in a day or a weekend tournament. There is growing evidence that while underhand pitching may be less stressful it can and will cause micro fiber tears in and around the rotator cuff if the pitcher is overused. Worse it can affect growth plates and put a lot of stress on the bicep.

There are coaches out there who will throw their #1 pitcher every game until she cant go any further due to exhaustion. These coaches are dangerous to a select softball pitcher. The sad part is the parents wont stop them. They want little Suzy to be in the spotlight. All for the sake of the win and a plastic trophy at the end of a weekend.

Something needs to be done just like baseball.

ifubuildit said:

Frankly I would like to see the governing bodies of softball starting with the ASA put guidelines and limitations in place to restrict the number of pitches a pitcher is allowed to throw in a day or a weekend tournament. There is growing evidence that while underhand pitching may be less stressful it can and will cause micro fiber tears in and around the rotator cuff if the pitcher is overused. Worse it can affect growth plates and put a lot of stress on the bicep.

There are coaches out there who will throw their #1 pitcher every game until she cant go any further due to exhaustion. These coaches are dangerous to a select softball pitcher. The sad part is the parents wont stop them. They want little Suzy to be in the spotlight. All for the sake of the win and a plastic trophy at the end of a weekend.

Something needs to be done just like baseball.

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Asking the ASA, or any association, to police the number of inning a pitcher pitches is impossible. AND, that duty would fall onto the umpires to do and they do not have the time or the desire.

Myself, I wish they would outlaw pitching with the elbow locked and straight arm. That causes the pitchers to over-extend their throwing shoulders high and that is what tears most of their shoulders up. But, again, we would be asking the umpires to detect and call that; now we are asking them to be experts on pitching mechanics and do that police work too.

They should also outlaw the use of the roll over drop in my opinion, too stressful. Again, we would be asking the umpires to be experts on pitching mechanics.

Aint gonna happen.

If an association set limits on how many innings, a pitcher stuck to those limits and STILL injured herself pitching, guess who is gonna get sued?

Hal

When it comes to medical things, I tend to look to the experts in this field -- doctors and professional trainers.

Overuse injuries in softball pitching are very real, even with good mechanics and an ambitious conditioning program. Scientific research done by experts confirms it. Ignore the facts at your own risk.

ifubuildit said:

Frankly I would like to see the governing bodies of softball starting with the ASA put guidelines and limitations in place to restrict the number of pitches a pitcher is allowed to throw in a day or a weekend tournament. There is growing evidence that while underhand pitching may be less stressful it can and will cause micro fiber tears in and around the rotator cuff if the pitcher is overused. Worse it can affect growth plates and put a lot of stress on the bicep.

There are coaches out there who will throw their #1 pitcher every game until she cant go any further due to exhaustion. These coaches are dangerous to a select softball pitcher. The sad part is the parents wont stop them. They want little Suzy to be in the spotlight. All for the sake of the win and a plastic trophy at the end of a weekend.

Something needs to be done just like baseball.

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Absolutely, I think educating league and tournament directors on the dangers of over use. Implement policies and track it with score books, this would keep tabs on pitcher innings or number of pitches and if any coach broke the rule a protest could be filed and a game forfeited, and I assure you this would quickly solve any problem.

I’ve heard that Little League has limited baseball and fast-pitch to 1,000 pitches a season. In my opinion the safety of the kids comes first. My daughter has friends that play baseball and baseball tournaments limit their pitchers to a number of pitches over a period of days and I do not see them have problems enforcing the rules.

I see kids with good mechanics as they get tired the mechanics suffer and in my uneducated opinion that is when they are endanger of recieving an injury.

When our kids are concerned we should error on the side of caution.

PEPPERS said:

Absolutely, I think educating league and tournament directors on the dangers of over use. Implement policies and track it with score books, this would keep tabs on pitcher innings or number of pitches and if any coach broke the rule a protest could be filed and a game forfeited, and I assure you this would quickly solve any problem.

I’ve heard that Little League has limited baseball and fast-pitch to 1,000 pitches a season. In my opinion the safety of the kids comes first. My daughter has friends that play baseball and baseball tournaments limit their pitchers to a number of pitches over a period of days and I do not see them have problems enforcing the rules.

I see kids with good mechanics as they get tired the mechanics suffer and in my uneducated opinion that is when they are endanger of recieving an injury.

When our kids are concerned we should error on the side of caution.

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OK. Let's say the ASA put restrictions on 12u and younger pitchers in tournament play. Let's say the pitchers are only allowed to throw 3 inning in a 24 hour period.

Now, they have a tourney with these stipulations. Team A plays on Friday night, loses and goes into the losers bracket right off. Friday night they used 3 pitchers, cant use any of them until late Saturday night. If they continue to win they will have to play three games BEFORE that first 24 hour period is up and they can use any of the first three again. 21 innings divided by 3 = 7 pitchers. Their roster will have to have 10 kids that are competitive pitchers.

If the team keeps winning and coming up through the losers bracket to the championship game, they might have to play 5 games on Sunday to take the tourny. They will run out of pitchers they can use by the 2nd game!

This is what I mean by 'Aint gonna happen'.

I’ve heard that Little League has limited baseball and fast-pitch to 1,000 pitches a season

I have read a lot of pitch limitations in the LL rule book & have never seen that- unless it is new for 2010.