The following are simply observations derived from my own experience as having been a pitcher and observations made while working with others. In general, the internal hip thrust (rotation), as some call it, in elite pitchers start and stop somewhere from the 12 o’clock to the 9 o’clock arm progress points regardless of whether the pitcher replants or not. Also, the amount of hip turn varies among different pitchers and is usually very short and abrupt in nature for most. This hip thrust or jolt is not very evident in such pitchers as Christa Williams, Michelle Granger and Finch for example. Some pitchers don’t even feel this happening while it doesn’t feel like a hip rotation but rather a natural jolt given by the hips. I don’t know if there is data actually supporting any relation between amount of hip turn and speed. Some of the fastest pitchers in the world were completely sideways at release while others had their hips partially turned. The internal rotation of the pivot leg can also vary and not always correspond to the actual amount of hip rotation depending on the pitcher. The second phase of hip rotation happens mostly after release and is part of the follow-through. Pitchers who replant do so at around the 12 o’clock arm position in both male and female. Those who do not replant have a hip thrust while the pivot foot is in the process of dragging forward and the stride foot is still in the air. In other words their hip thrust happens while neither foot is planted on the ground. The above examples do not usually apply to steppers. That's the way I perceived things over the years and perhaps slo-mo video can shed even more light to the subject.
Internal rotation of the back leg
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"I’ll bet that you will likely fall out of your chair or fly open if you do it with the back foot on the ground and the front foot off. OTOH, if you put your front foot down and keep your back foot off the ground you can load and unload and probably hit the ball relatively hard with a little practice."
Since we are talking about pivot leg action prior to stride leg landing, the front leg is irrelevant in the context of this discussion. Of course I agree that the front leg is important. In fact, it is the only meaningful source of ground leverage available to the non-crow-hopping leap-n-dragger after the push off. Without its firm support, the core muscles have nothing to work against to generate power. I don't think any of us would disagree with something this fundamental.
"Can we agree that rotation has begun prior to the stride foot planting?"
Yes. I think this is a crucial point in this discussion, and one that at least potentially gives the crow-hoppers a mechanical advantage over true leap-n-draggers.
"Can we also agree that the rotation forward occurs at the end of the push – meaning that the pivot leg has extended and expended a significant amount of energy to drive the body forward?"
In the examples shown at least, the bulk of the rotation happens after the stride foot has landed, so yes, by then the pivot leg is more or less a passive element. It's like a tag team situation: the pivot leg initiates the rotation by pushing on the ball-side of the hip from behind, the stride leg then takes over and brings the rotation to its end point with the backward push against the glove side of the hip. This is akin to pulling the bottom hand (stride leg) and pushing with the top hand (pivot leg) when torquing (rotating) the bat (hip) during a swing. In this analogy, the torso is to the batter's arms what the ground is to the pitcher's legs, and firm foot plants are represented by the shoulder joints: the true leap-n-dragger is basically doing all the work with just the bottom hand (stride leg), as her top hand arm (pivot leg) is disconnected at the shoulder (no replant)... This is why habitual crow-hoppers will never convert to this form of pitching without being somehow forced to do so.
"In any case, how does the foot initiate the movement of the pivot leg knee in the attached image? This is frame 11 and 12 in the original Hamilton clip. Also, when does the replant occur? Does it occur in any of the frames in the image from my previous post?"
I am not sure what you are asking me to look at. His pivot foot looks firmly planted in these frames, AFTER the replant. The initial skip/hop occurred prior to these frames (a brief sequence of which is visible at the beginning of the original video). I don't think I ever said that the foot initiates the rotation (didn't mean to anyway); it's mainly the big adductor muscles in the thigh that do this. What I AM saying however is that this adduction would have been mechanically useless (i.e., it would not have contributed to the initial rotation of the hip), if the foot hadn't been firmly planted, with concurrent input from the extensor muscles. Indeed, without a foot plant, the adduction of the thigh would cause the hip to open rather than close (in softball terms), in the opposite direction of where it needs to go at this point in the pitching or throwing motion. You can see this effect by jumping straight up and try to rotate your lower body in mid air, and see what that does to your upper body: without supporting your lower body (foot plant), your upper body (hip) will rotate in the opposite direction of your lower body (leg).
I can think of many more analogies to draw on to make this point, from ballet dancers to skateboarders, but I think this horse has pretty much been turned into glue by now. So we may just have to agree to disagree at this point.
Happy Thanksgiving!
GT
Since we are talking about pivot leg action prior to stride leg landing, the front leg is irrelevant in the context of this discussion. Of course I agree that the front leg is important. In fact, it is the only meaningful source of ground leverage available to the non-crow-hopping leap-n-dragger after the push off. Without its firm support, the core muscles have nothing to work against to generate power. I don't think any of us would disagree with something this fundamental.
"Can we agree that rotation has begun prior to the stride foot planting?"
Yes. I think this is a crucial point in this discussion, and one that at least potentially gives the crow-hoppers a mechanical advantage over true leap-n-draggers.
"Can we also agree that the rotation forward occurs at the end of the push – meaning that the pivot leg has extended and expended a significant amount of energy to drive the body forward?"
In the examples shown at least, the bulk of the rotation happens after the stride foot has landed, so yes, by then the pivot leg is more or less a passive element. It's like a tag team situation: the pivot leg initiates the rotation by pushing on the ball-side of the hip from behind, the stride leg then takes over and brings the rotation to its end point with the backward push against the glove side of the hip. This is akin to pulling the bottom hand (stride leg) and pushing with the top hand (pivot leg) when torquing (rotating) the bat (hip) during a swing. In this analogy, the torso is to the batter's arms what the ground is to the pitcher's legs, and firm foot plants are represented by the shoulder joints: the true leap-n-dragger is basically doing all the work with just the bottom hand (stride leg), as her top hand arm (pivot leg) is disconnected at the shoulder (no replant)... This is why habitual crow-hoppers will never convert to this form of pitching without being somehow forced to do so.
"In any case, how does the foot initiate the movement of the pivot leg knee in the attached image? This is frame 11 and 12 in the original Hamilton clip. Also, when does the replant occur? Does it occur in any of the frames in the image from my previous post?"
I am not sure what you are asking me to look at. His pivot foot looks firmly planted in these frames, AFTER the replant. The initial skip/hop occurred prior to these frames (a brief sequence of which is visible at the beginning of the original video). I don't think I ever said that the foot initiates the rotation (didn't mean to anyway); it's mainly the big adductor muscles in the thigh that do this. What I AM saying however is that this adduction would have been mechanically useless (i.e., it would not have contributed to the initial rotation of the hip), if the foot hadn't been firmly planted, with concurrent input from the extensor muscles. Indeed, without a foot plant, the adduction of the thigh would cause the hip to open rather than close (in softball terms), in the opposite direction of where it needs to go at this point in the pitching or throwing motion. You can see this effect by jumping straight up and try to rotate your lower body in mid air, and see what that does to your upper body: without supporting your lower body (foot plant), your upper body (hip) will rotate in the opposite direction of your lower body (leg).
I can think of many more analogies to draw on to make this point, from ballet dancers to skateboarders, but I think this horse has pretty much been turned into glue by now. So we may just have to agree to disagree at this point.
Happy Thanksgiving!
GT
RT,
There may be hope for consensus after all. I think we may be talking about different things at different times in the motion. One thing I believe we have been misunderstanding each other on is the emphasis on the crow hop of Hamilton’s throw. I have been focused on the point where his hips begin to rotate forward just prior to the stride leg planting because that is the point at which a crow hop would occur in a softball pitch. I agree that he crow hops at the beginning of the clip. But, for purposes of this specific discussion I would argue that from the point that he has crow hopped and begins pushing forward can be viewed as though he had begun pushing forward from a static position – he has gained some linear momentum but the crow hop is basically a gathering and his motion forward is essentially that of a baseball pitcher.
The other thing that I think we may be misunderstanding each other on is that you have several times mentioned that what we are actually talking about is abduction/adduction. I should have picked up on this sooner and apologize. What I am hoping to get at in this thread is the effects and possible benefits of internal/external rotation of the legs. To that end I have attached 2 images to highlight the difference, not because I think you don’t know the difference, but to clarify for general discussion.
I can see why you would argue that Fico is crow hopping if you are looking at her strictly in terms of abduction/adduction. What I am seeing is her back leg internally rotating ahead of stride leg plant. The reason I highlighted frames 11 and 12 in the Hamilton clip is I see the same internal rotation of the pivot leg at a similar point in both throwing motions.
What I am seeing during the initial push off the rubber is her pivot leg is extending, abducting and externally rotating in sequence. The external rotation allows her to fully extend and abduct and effectively lengthens her stride. It also has the effect of rotating the foot under the knee once it has lost contact with the rubber. At the point of the alleged crowhop she has begun to internally rotate her pivot leg. This has the effect of unweighting her hip. It also shortens her stride length and redirects adduction.
If she were pushing or pulling at replant we should see one of several things occur. If she were pushing off at replant we should see her front foot move forward increasing the stride length or she would become more nose over toes – neither of which happens. If she were pulling (adducting) at replant we should see her pivot foot being dragged towards her midline along the power line – and this doesn’t happen.
What I do think is happening is internally rotating her pivot leg allows her hips to rotate because they are not dragging the back leg. This is not crowhopping which is replanting and pushing. I also think that the internal rotation slightly delays the pivot leg adduction until after the hips have begun rotating and allows for more forceful rotation forward. This is evident to me by the swiping motion of the foot behind her into release. I think this also helps to clear the rotating back hip so the arm can pass close to the body rather than around the hip.
I think that there is an equally important internal/external rotation of the stride leg that helps to align the body and sequence actions to transfer energy up the kinetic chain. But, that is for another day.
I also want to say that I absolutely do not believe that these actions are something that the pitcher thinks about during her motion. But, they can be practiced and taught.
There may be hope for consensus after all. I think we may be talking about different things at different times in the motion. One thing I believe we have been misunderstanding each other on is the emphasis on the crow hop of Hamilton’s throw. I have been focused on the point where his hips begin to rotate forward just prior to the stride leg planting because that is the point at which a crow hop would occur in a softball pitch. I agree that he crow hops at the beginning of the clip. But, for purposes of this specific discussion I would argue that from the point that he has crow hopped and begins pushing forward can be viewed as though he had begun pushing forward from a static position – he has gained some linear momentum but the crow hop is basically a gathering and his motion forward is essentially that of a baseball pitcher.
The other thing that I think we may be misunderstanding each other on is that you have several times mentioned that what we are actually talking about is abduction/adduction. I should have picked up on this sooner and apologize. What I am hoping to get at in this thread is the effects and possible benefits of internal/external rotation of the legs. To that end I have attached 2 images to highlight the difference, not because I think you don’t know the difference, but to clarify for general discussion.
I can see why you would argue that Fico is crow hopping if you are looking at her strictly in terms of abduction/adduction. What I am seeing is her back leg internally rotating ahead of stride leg plant. The reason I highlighted frames 11 and 12 in the Hamilton clip is I see the same internal rotation of the pivot leg at a similar point in both throwing motions.
What I am seeing during the initial push off the rubber is her pivot leg is extending, abducting and externally rotating in sequence. The external rotation allows her to fully extend and abduct and effectively lengthens her stride. It also has the effect of rotating the foot under the knee once it has lost contact with the rubber. At the point of the alleged crowhop
she has begun to internally rotate her pivot leg. This has the effect of unweighting her hip. It also shortens her stride length and redirects adduction.If she were pushing or pulling at replant we should see one of several things occur. If she were pushing off at replant we should see her front foot move forward increasing the stride length or she would become more nose over toes – neither of which happens. If she were pulling (adducting) at replant we should see her pivot foot being dragged towards her midline along the power line – and this doesn’t happen.
What I do think is happening is internally rotating her pivot leg allows her hips to rotate because they are not dragging the back leg. This is not crowhopping which is replanting and pushing. I also think that the internal rotation slightly delays the pivot leg adduction until after the hips have begun rotating and allows for more forceful rotation forward. This is evident to me by the swiping motion of the foot behind her into release. I think this also helps to clear the rotating back hip so the arm can pass close to the body rather than around the hip.
I think that there is an equally important internal/external rotation of the stride leg that helps to align the body and sequence actions to transfer energy up the kinetic chain. But, that is for another day.
I also want to say that I absolutely do not believe that these actions are something that the pitcher thinks about during her motion. But, they can be practiced and taught.
- Oct 22, 2009
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My DD pitched this way --drag leg --push.
We call this a double push, as she pitches she pushes off the rubber, then after foot plant pushes again on the down swing.
We call this a double push, as she pitches she pushes off the rubber, then after foot plant pushes again on the down swing.
Seems to be a lot of focus on the leg/knee in this discussion. I'd suggest that after landing foot heel plant that the drive leg and knee are just along for the ride. The core of the body has taken over and it's rotational forces create the movements you are seeing in the drive leg/knee.
All the discussion regarding crow hopping, explosion off the mound, walkin pitching,etc. should be understood that the real purpose for any of these moves is to generate more linear energy that transfers into the core in its rotational movement once the landing foot heal plants.
Efficiently transferring energy through the bodies kinetic chain is very key to generating speed. Not everyone that crowhops efficiently transfers energy. Every radar gun a pitcher that couldn't throw any faster when performing walkins? I see it often---it is 'cause they aren't efficient in the transfer process-----probably are very poor in timing.
All the discussion regarding crow hopping, explosion off the mound, walkin pitching,etc. should be understood that the real purpose for any of these moves is to generate more linear energy that transfers into the core in its rotational movement once the landing foot heal plants.
Efficiently transferring energy through the bodies kinetic chain is very key to generating speed. Not everyone that crowhops efficiently transfers energy. Every radar gun a pitcher that couldn't throw any faster when performing walkins? I see it often---it is 'cause they aren't efficient in the transfer process-----probably are very poor in timing.
BLB
If you view the hip rotation at 600 FPS or higher you will see that it isn't quite the pretty rotation that our naked eye percieves.
What really happens is the the core snaps the hips into a curvelinear rotation---but just a millisecond prior to release the hip snap comes to almost a complete stop(thus the term hip snap)----the ball is released----and then the core/hips/muscles unload and the hip rotation resumes.
This snap---stop is one of four points of resistance that most elite level pitchers have.
Just experiment with this yourself. I think you will find it difficult to throw fast or accurately when you try to use a nice smooth hip rotation with no resistance.
As you have suggested, there are elite pitchers that don't appear to use much hip closing-----I think you are accurate in that observation, but I am pretty certain they have some level of hip snap. I think these young ladies have been "over trained" by some well intentioned pitching coach.
Just experiment with this yourself. I think you will find it difficult to throw fast or accurately when you try to use a nice smooth hip rotation with no resistance.
[/QUOTE]
Don't need to experiment. I already know what you mean through a 20+ year pitching career plus another 20+ years of pitching BP as a coach. You call it "hip snap" and I called it "hip thrust" for lack of a better word but we are talking about the same thing. It feels like you want to quickly have your hips in a specific position to create a load or a power position as the arm starts its downswing. Once they are where they should be, they stay there until release then they simply follow through. I don't have the right words to explain this but people who have pitched should know what I mean.
[/QUOTE]
Don't need to experiment. I already know what you mean through a 20+ year pitching career plus another 20+ years of pitching BP as a coach. You call it "hip snap" and I called it "hip thrust" for lack of a better word but we are talking about the same thing. It feels like you want to quickly have your hips in a specific position to create a load or a power position as the arm starts its downswing. Once they are where they should be, they stay there until release then they simply follow through. I don't have the right words to explain this but people who have pitched should know what I mean.
- Oct 22, 2009
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Don't need to experiment. I already know what you mean through a 20+ year pitching career plus another 20+ years of pitching BP as a coach. You call it "hip snap" and I called it "hip thrust" for lack of a better word but we are talking about the same thing. It feels like you want to quickly have your hips in a specific position to create a load or a power position as the arm starts its downswing. Once they are where they should be, they stay there until release then they simply follow through. I don't have the right words to explain this but people who have pitched should know what I mean.[/QUOTE]
Hip snap = hip thrust--my term = Hip shove
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
Always viewed this as an adduction (moving towards the center of the body) movement... resulting from the contraction (squeeze/clench) of well-centered... and largest of the muscles... the glutes (butt cheeks). The contraction (clench) will return the rear leg... or attempt to... to its normal anatomical position (position when standing erect and at rest). As Rick mentioned, the curvilinear (object moving in a curved path) nature is a resultant path from the GRF and then the contraction of the glutes.
Just like batting, the rear leg isn't pushed forward... it's sucked in by the very dominant and proximal (close to center) glute (butt cheek) contraction (squeeze).
We may see a hip snap... but I think the resultant linear (straight line) forces that we brake against (GRF), coupled with the path of the arm circle, coupled with a contraction of the glutes... are 'the cause' of the resultant IR and 'snap'.
There is a post or two in the DM thread on this. Good share, Ken.
So... for Ken,
As you stride out... you brace for impact. Impact occurs... forward momentum stops (or slows). Arm path is coming around... and because your arm is attached to the body... it assists in curving your body... and when you squeeze your butt cheeks together... that squeeze... coupled with all the other things... brings the leg in towards the center of the body... with the appearance of a hip snap.
Just like batting, the rear leg isn't pushed forward... it's sucked in by the very dominant and proximal (close to center) glute (butt cheek) contraction (squeeze).
We may see a hip snap... but I think the resultant linear (straight line) forces that we brake against (GRF), coupled with the path of the arm circle, coupled with a contraction of the glutes... are 'the cause' of the resultant IR and 'snap'.
There is a post or two in the DM thread on this. Good share, Ken.
So... for Ken,
As you stride out... you brace for impact. Impact occurs... forward momentum stops (or slows). Arm path is coming around... and because your arm is attached to the body... it assists in curving your body... and when you squeeze your butt cheeks together... that squeeze... coupled with all the other things... brings the leg in towards the center of the body... with the appearance of a hip snap.
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