Topspin Vs Bulletspin, Which is Faster?

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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
When the current Arizona State pitcher throws a so called rise ball on TV and the spin is being shown in slow motion it is actually tumbling forward, especially visible the year ASU won it all her Freshman year- the pitch is purely a trajectory pitch that starts low and finishes high in the zone as you say. When you include Tincher in the mix of pitchers that aren't actually throwing a rise ball, I've had a tendency to put her in the class of a Kat Osterman where the ball actually appears to rise as evidenced by how she literally made our Olympic team look silly swinging at her rise in 2008 with pitches being swung at literally over the batter's head; but I have to confess that I've never seen her spin in slow motion. I've had the privilege of working briefly with a student of Denny Tincher's who was the high school Gatorade pitcher of the year last year whose rise spin was as close to straight back as I've ever seen; but to do so she was taking a few miles an hour off the pitch to make it happen as has been my experience in teaching the rise for the last twenty years. In baseball, many pitchers lose as much 15 miles an hour when coming over the top of the ball for the curve: so why shouldn't we expect true back spin on a rise ball to also cause some significant slow down in the speed of it as we come under the ball. I can't begin to tell you how many of my students who had what I considered to be true rise spin get ruined on that pitch when they've gone to college because the college pitching coach is insisting that the rise be thrown harder and it can't be significantly done without the spin becoming bullet spin. It is going to be interesting to me to see what happens to Denny's student in college with her rise.
(Notice I'm on not entering into the argument whether a ball actually rises or not- but I know this that it is harder to hit when it actually spins backward with "enough" speed.)
Also to address the thread, it is my experience that most students lose a little speed, especially for awhile, when learning to throw a drop which would cause me to believe that the spirally spin can be thrown harder. The question that needs to be asked is " which pitch is most effective" eh?

Gotta bump this one up--great thread!

Hoping Coach Balswick stops by again soon to announce the release of his new video, not to mention sharing more of his experience and perspectives. Not only a master instructor; but a master student of the game...
 
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JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
Gotta bump this one up--great thread!

Hoping Coach Balswick stops by again soon to announce the release of his new video, not to mention sharing more of his experience and perspectives. Not only a master instructor; but a master student of the game...

My avatar ripped your avatar's arm off in 1976.

Nice Bump- it would be nice if Rich dropped by again.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
If granted a reunion show, my avatar would be glad for round two. Keep in mind, sasquatch's live twice as long as humans... My avatar, even with only one arm, is only about 40 years old.

Balswick and sasquatch have a one thing in common in that sightings are rare. At least Balswick has a good excuse (adding the finishing touches to the long-awaited video!)
 
Feb 7, 2013
3,188
48
I'm sure the last thing you guys want to see is video evidence of bullet spin from a high level pitcher..........It just kills the party I know.........

I understand Rick and Bill's assertion that pitchers shouldn't be taught bullet spin as a "pitch" in an arsenal.........However.......It's my opinion that bullet spin is a RESULT of high level mechanics left to "do what they do"........Without manipulation of lace direction for directed movement up/down/left/right.........

Bullet spin occurs when the ball is released mid-snap or mid-I/R as the thumb comes off the ball half way through the I/R delivery, and the fingers continue under and through release..........

It is my educated opinion that IF you are training PROPER whip........Void of insistance that the ball spin 6-12 during the whip.......Bullet spin can/will be the result more often then not..........

It's great to say "I don't teach bullet spin".......By simply insisting on 6-12 rotation during the whipping process.......But I question that insistence during the early training process of throwing a ball underhand.......I do NOT insist on 6-12 rotation until I know that proper mechanics are in place..........Then it's simply a matter of manipulation to 6-12..........

You're kidding yourself if you think "unchecked" manipulation WITH I/R doesn't result in some level of "bullet spin" at the highest levels.......

Pay close attention to the black line........The thumb is directly on it......And it's facing away from the body......And it never moves as the thumb comes off the ball........This is a bullet spin pitch from Sarah Pauley........When she isn't throwing rise/drop/curve/change..........

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That spin doesn't have to be taught........Because it is a RESULT of a high level whipping motion........WITHOUT manipulation...........

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Bumping this thread as some posts are directly related to the other IR v Bullet Spin thread.

BTW - in support of Boardmember's advice to teach bullet spin first and then move on to 6-12 spin, there is a very successful pitching coach in my area, Kat Slaten-Ayala, that teaches arm whip mechanics that result in bullet spin fastballs as the first pitch. Once "perfected" she then works off of those mechanics for movement pitches (e.g. 6-12 drop balls). This is in sharp contrast to most of the other PCs in the area that teach HE mechanics and 6-12 spin from Day 1.
 

Greenmonsters

Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Feb 21, 2009
6,168
38
New England
Bumping this thread as some posts are directly related to the other IR v Bullet Spin thread.

BTW - in support of Boardmember's advice to teach bullet spin first and then move on to 6-12 spin, there is a very successful pitching coach in my area, Kat Slaten-Ayala, that teaches arm whip mechanics that result in bullet spin fastballs as the first pitch. Once "perfected" she then works off of those mechanics for movement pitches (e.g. 6-12 drop balls). This is in sharp contrast to most of the other PCs in the area that teach HE mechanics and 6-12 spin from Day 1.

Using this approach, a pitcher could have a drop, rise, and, hold your hats,..............................a fastball!
 

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