strikeouts or putting the ball in play--the mental appraoch

halskinner · Oct 11, 2009

jimginas said:
I agree w/ CoachFP here.... IMHO, and I very humbly mean that (there are much better coaches that pitched for years that provide great advice)..... so IMHO, I believe you have to try and understand what each batter gives you and MOST importantly, LEARN their tendancies! Understand whether they have fast hands, where their hands set and does she drop them, upward swing, chopping down?? her alignment on the plate, etc.... For me.. Batters have tendancies, just like coaches do. Does she tend to take 1st pitch? (SOME Coaches insist their batters take the 1st pitch, which to me then is a fat changup, great advantage pitching after a 1st pitch changeup for a strike) Does she tend to be an aggresive batter and like to swing at one of the first 2 pitches? if so, make sure you pitch something off the plate to get either a weak hit ball or at least change her view drastically so you can setup the next pitch. (Junior high - you can't allow your pitchers to go 2-0 too many times though!)

Who is the ON-Deck batter and how many outs?

There are many variables that play into what pitches should be called, so without knowing the dynamics of your pitcher, the batters, the opposing coaches tendancies to bunt/slap/hit and the game situation, its difficult to talk specifics.

** In general, don't let your pitchers get to ball 3; 1st 3 pitches, especially at that age, should have 2 strikes; learn the changeup and another off-speed pitch (off-speed is not as difficult to learn as the traditional 15 mph differnce of softball changeups - often just a grip change to a fastball). ** Make them understand goals for each inning prior to going out and have GAME goals for the first 4 innings and last 3 innings.... (some young pitchers tend to tire if not properly conditioned and batters have seen her 2X already).
*** I see that pitchers are NOT learning to THINK on their own and rely SOLELY on the coach. KNOW who the next batters are when you start the inning, tell them the batters tendancies and what your plan is to get them out.. (1st pitch swingers; 1st pitch lookers; weak hitter-going after her and NOT wasting pitches; maybe pitch very good hitters low-away to hope for a right-side groundball; maybe plan is to pitch the bunter high-in or high-away depending on your corners to get the pop-up, etc, whatever your plan is BUT PITCHERS should NOT go from the bench (yakking with her friends) to the mound without a plan before EVERY INNING!
** Take your young pitchers and catchers out with the coaches to lunch or slurpees or something sometimes so you are ALL on the same page and talk pitching and pitching strategies! you'll learn a lot and they will also, then you all will start to click and it becomes a lot more fun!

_______________________________________________________

Sorry Jimginas but I read this and my jaw dropped to the floor on some of what you said.

Pitching to a hitter HOPING they get a weak hit??? You have got to be kidding me here! You pitch to any batter HOPING they get any kind of hit, you just said it is OK if the batter hits the ball and puts it in play! THAT IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE MINDSET FOR A WINNING PITCHER!

The pitcher is the only OFFENSIVE position on a DEFENSIVE team; pitching offense vs. hitting offense. Until she figures that part out she will NOT be a champion.

You go after EVERY single batter with the intention of striking out that batter because, as a pitcher, to do any less is an insult to this sport. Are you going to strike every hitter out??? Of course not, but by God you better try your best to do just that.

Please dont let her be one of those sad pitchers out there whose coach has told them "It's OK. You got a lot of good players out there on the field with you, go ahead and let them hit it". BULLCRAP! What if one of those players of hers makes a mistake?

She needs to go after every batter with everything she's got, or you need to find a pitcher that will!

Hal

jimginas · Oct 11, 2009

Hal, you probably realize I have a lot of respect for your posts and obviously I meant a weak hit ball to 2B side for a routine out to 1B........... though your suggestion that you don't pitch location based on situation doesn't make sense. Runners at 1st and 2nd, less then 2 out and often we pitch to get a ground ball to 3B side to get the lead runner. Bunter and we pitch a high pitch to get a popout........
So, THAT said, I absolutely do NOT agree with trying to get a STRIKE OUT every batter.

jimginas · Oct 11, 2009

BTW: prior to our discussion, I posted a thread discussing coaches speaking of coach's replies based on persepective based on experience and possibly from varying regions of the country.

From my limited experience (I'm still green to Softball coaching - 12 years), and from the clinics I've attended which do include Cindy Bristow, Chuck D'Arcy, Nancy Evans and Jennie Finch and varying pitching coaches from throughout the country....... I have a belief that we pitch based on situations........

To assimilate this discussion to when I coached football 10 years as a football defense coach, if an offense has 3rd and 15, we have our DBs play w/ their heels on the 1st down line and working to keep plays in front of us, long yardage, we are ok w/ allowing X yards, but not giving up the big play or 1st down play....... if we were over-aggressive, we'd play not to give up ANY yards, but that's not realistic and potential to give up the 1st down is greater. So we may stunt our D-linemen with the intent for QB to make a bad play (sack / INT or cause a turnover, so yes we are playing hard, but we are ALSO playing SMART. If we don't get the sack, make the play BEFORE the 1st down mark.
** I THINK you may agree, you want your pitcher getting the strikeout, but if the ball IS hit in play, you'd like an out that doesn't give up bases or runs. Is that right or do you feel the pitcher's mentality absolutely must be get the strikeout - period. I imagine great pitchers feel - I don't care WHAT the situation - I can strikeout the batter at the plate!

sluggers · Oct 11, 2009

She needs to go after every batter with everything she's got, or you need to find a pitcher that will!

My DD agrees 100% with this.

You go after EVERY single batter with the intention of striking out that batter because, as a pitcher, to do any less is an insult to this sport.

My DD disagrees with you. You approach each batter with the intention of getting her out. The plan is to get the batter to "go fishing" for something the batter can't handle. If the batters swings at a pitch out of the batter's comfort zone and hits it, it will likely be a pop up or a weak ground ball. The preferable game is 21 pop-ups, not 21 strike outs.

She said that the problem of approaching batters with the "I'm going to strike you out mentality" is that it leads to over-confidence and mistakes.

Monica Abbott "only" struck out about 50% of the batters she faced in college. Most D1 pitchers average probably 5 to 6 Ks per game.

CoachFP · Oct 12, 2009

halskinner said:
_______________________________________________________

Sorry Jimginas but I read this and my jaw dropped to the floor on some of what you said.

Pitching to a hitter HOPING they get a weak hit??? You have got to be kidding me here! You pitch to any batter HOPING they get any kind of hit, you just said it is OK if the batter hits the ball and puts it in play! THAT IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE MINDSET FOR A WINNING PITCHER!

The pitcher is the only OFFENSIVE position on a DEFENSIVE team; pitching offense vs. hitting offense. Until she figures that part out she will NOT be a champion.

You go after EVERY single batter with the intention of striking out that batter because, as a pitcher, to do any less is an insult to this sport. Are you going to strike every hitter out??? Of course not, but by God you better try your best to do just that.

Please dont let her be one of those sad pitchers out there whose coach has told them "It's OK. You got a lot of good players out there on the field with you, go ahead and let them hit it". BULLCRAP! What if one of those players of hers makes a mistake?

She needs to go after every batter with everything she's got, or you need to find a pitcher that will!

Hal

Hal, your credibility is about zero with this last post. You don't go after EVERY single batter with the intention of striking them out. Ridiculous at any level. I am surprised someone with your supposed pitching accolades could even say that. Strikeouts are nice, but they should come as the result of making good pitches. I would rather have 21 outs on ground balls and win the game than 15 strikeouts and lose because I was going after strikeouts instead of pitching to get the hitters OUT.

WinThemAll · Oct 12, 2009

sluggers said:
. . .You approach each batter with the intention of getting her out. The plan is to get the batter to "go fishing" for something the batter can't handle. If the batters swings at a pitch out of the batter's comfort zone and hits it, it will likely be a pop up or a weak ground ball. The preferable game is 21 pop-ups, not 21 strike outs. . .

Excellent Post!!!!

halskinner · Oct 12, 2009

jimginas said:
Hal, you probably realize I have a lot of respect for your posts and obviously I meant a weak hit ball to 2B side for a routine out to 1B........... though your suggestion that you don't pitch location based on situation doesn't make sense. Runners at 1st and 2nd, less then 2 out and often we pitch to get a ground ball to 3B side to get the lead runner. Bunter and we pitch a high pitch to get a popout........
So, THAT said, I absolutely do NOT agree with trying to get a STRIKE OUT every batter.

"Runners at 1st and 2nd, less then 2 out and often we pitch to get a ground ball to 3B side to get the lead runner. Bunter and we pitch a high pitch to get a popout........"

Show the other team that ahead of time and they will come up with a way to deal with it and mess up your plans. My point was that you are laying out what you want the pitcher to do before the first pitch to that batter. She is going to expect her pitch to get hit and that it will end in the situation you are hoping for. What if it does not end that way? "Oh well. I threw exactly what the coach wanted and where he wanted it. Not MY fault it didnt work out like he said".

What happens to that pitcher NEXT season if she plays on a team where all her teammates have a big hole in the webbing of their gloves, have two left feet, they cant catch, throw, hit or run and they are all crosseyed? What happens when she has to depend on herself to get ANY outs at all??? It can happen, happened to me right out of high school.

A pitcher's offensive frame of mind, a pitcher's pitching ability attacking the batters ability to connect, offense vs offense.

If the pitcher is taught to have a defensive frame of mind, that is exactly what she will be doing alot of the time, defending her position from pitches that are hit. The sad part is that she has been trained to think that is perfectly OK and it's actually expected to be that way. It is not.

I remember a 14u tourney where there 2 outs and runners on 1st and 2nd.

The coach yelled out instructions, one at a time, to every single player in the infield telling them where to throw if the ball was hit to them. It took like a full minute. The entire time the pitcher was standing there looking at the coach waiting for some type of positive comment. It never came. When he was done, I yelled to the pitcher, "Hey Sarah, forget all that crap and strike her out, dont giuve anybody a chance to screw up!" She got a big smile her face as did everyone else in the infield. Then she struck the batter out and got herself out of an ugly situation.

Confidence in pitching is everything. A pitcher that has a defensive frame of mind WILL NOT have the confidence level in themselves to be a champion and I dont care who her coach is, who her instructor is or if she has the NY Mets playing behind her.

jimginas · Oct 12, 2009

Hal - I do appreciate your patience and discussion....... the reason I love this Discussion site is I am the 1st person to tell you I need to continue to learn and understand different perspectives. I learn things from you and Sluggers, KenK, CoachFP, etc all the time, so I am willing to hear the rationale behind the arguements.
What I THINK you are saying is the pitcher's attititue and Frame of Mind MUST be she is an oustanding pitcher w/ all the confidence in the world to get any batter out, and can do so with a strikeout. EVERY BATTER she faces, she can strikeout, but not that she thinks she is going to strike out 21 batters in the game.
*** I spend quite a bit of time with the pitchers I work with on the mental game. Absolute confidence, understanding our NEXT PITCH is the most important, and belief that we work harder then ANY other player on the field. I put my pitchers in situations where we are up by one run, tying run at 3rd and winning run at 2B, last inning NOBODY out (and variances of game lke situations with pressure, I make bad calls on close pitches as an Umpire sometimes does, etc.....) ... ALL to help prepare her for real game situatioons, so she has been through that SAME situation NUMEROUS times and believes she can get out of ANY situation. (I've never told her she may have to strike out the side though. Putting on that much pressure is just incredible.)
*** I'd like to believe that the girls we put on the field behind our pitchers have been practiced enough, with correct fielding mechanics that our pitcher also has confidence in her defense behind her. And I am HUGE on mechanics, transition time and basics of fielding and throwing! (We work feeds EVERY PRACTICE, same as throws for force plays/tags and darts for rundowns, outfield drills for approaches to the ball/angles, foot work, tracking drills/Hip flips, glove to release times, 12:00 throwing, 1 step & 2 step crow hops, etc.... ) -- THAT said, there are times where our defense does in-fact let us down, and I'll admit that I sit there and think to myself, my goodness- lets get a strikeout here! But I don't say that out loud and I don't EVER want my pitcher having to think she has to get a strike out to get an out.

CoachFP · Oct 13, 2009

jimginas, don't listen to that nonsense about trying to strike out every batter. Having confidence should consist of being able to throw the proper pitch, to the proper spot, at the proper speed to get a batter out. There are batters out there that your pitcher, no matter how good, is NOT going to strike out. Some macho strike'em out attitude would be counter productive. Getting the batter to hit "your" pitch is the best advice. Your pitch preferrably is one that the batter has trouble with or is not in the strike zone.

I can't believe that someone who gets on here as an expert offered that advice regarding trying to strike out batters.

halskinner · Oct 13, 2009

You cannot bluff your way through the mental game

CoachFP said:
jimginas, don't listen to that nonsense about trying to strike out every batter. Having confidence should consist of being able to throw the proper pitch, to the proper spot, at the proper speed to get a batter out. There are batters out there that your pitcher, no matter how good, is NOT going to strike out. Some macho strike'em out attitude would be counter productive. Getting the batter to hit "your" pitch is the best advice. Your pitch preferrably is one that the batter has trouble with or is not in the strike zone.

I can't believe that someone who gets on here as an expert offered that advice regarding trying to strike out batters.

Back in 2004 I took on a couple of 10u beginning pitchers. Both had pitched the previous year but neither was very successful.

I start teaching the mental game and how a champion pitcher must think at the very start, no matter how young. Halfway into that season both team coaches came by the academy and asked me what the heck I was teaching them. Both pitchers went from OK to dominating real quick, however, the reason for their visit was because they claimed both had a major attitude problem.

I had done my best to instill in them the same attitude I had towards my pitching, the 'other' team, batters and ANYONE that tried to tell me something other than what I already knew to be true when it came to defeating the batters I faced. Coaches often mistake a pitcher's confidence for 'Bad attitude'.

I taught them, just as a little example, that if a coach or any adult asked them how many batters they intended to strike, they were to reply at the top of their lungs "ALL OF EM", they were to then walk away on that note and abruptly end that conversation. Coaches mistake that level of confidence and aggressiveness as a bad attitude.

At the championship game (tournament) for their league, it was pitcher A's team vs pitcher B's team.

Pitcher A won the game with 21 straight strike outs. Pitcher B lost with 18 strike outs, 14 of them in a row.

If you think it cant be done, you are mistaken.

And, just like most of my former students, I still have that 'attitude' when it comes to the mental game and how a pitcher must think to be the best they can be.

So, when it comes to that 'nonsense' you refer to, my former students and I could not care less what someone else thinks that does not understand what we know.

strikeouts or putting the ball in play--the mental appraoch

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