Need some help on arm location.......

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Oct 10, 2012
502
16
Oklahoma
LizzyPitching101413 - YouTube

In the past few weeks my DD's IR has weakened in my opinion. We have been working on a change up which requires more of a push than the whipping action of the arm. Is it possible that by working on the change up has affected the bend on the arm on the downswing thus causing her arm to become longer on the way down? If so, should we keep working on that change up or just stick with focusing on proper mechanics? It just seems like something "just isnt right". The only thing I could see is the arm is longer at the bottom than it has been in the past. If anyone has any advice, please let me know. I appreciate it.
 
Last edited:
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Using DD's little gadget-ma-thingy, I'd say that's the best looking whip I've seen from her yet! Gotta hold anything solid until I can watch it on a desktop.

Meanwhile, spend time on whip and spend time on the change. Trust her to feel what she needs to feel and give her feedback. If you feel like there wasn't as much pop in a series of fastballs, ask her what she felt. If you see a change in spin, location, pop, etc., you might need to put the brakes on and work stuff out. She should be able to use your feedback along with what she feels/sees to make the correction.
 
Last edited:
Dec 3, 2012
636
16
West Coast
She looks sharp! It looks like she is finding her grove and getting really comfortable in her motion. She is balanced, really quick and smooth at the same time. You just might not be used to her being so quick in her motion and you think her arm is long because you are used to her learning how to pitch with I/R. Shhh.. don't tell anyone, but I have been trying to pattern my DD after yours.
 

JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
5,436
38
safe in an undisclosed location
If your daughter's motion is looking more fluid and natural and you mistake it for laziness...you just might be a crazy pitcher parent. I stopped it at a couple of frames in the downswing and I see a nice healthy bend. If you need a dose of reality look at the Jenny Finch slo motion, your DD has more bend than her and she keeps it down into the 8 O clock position. I think it looks better than ever.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Lizzy is straightening out at 8-7. I wouldn't sweat it. Show her the video, work on feeing elbow first and forearm loose/pulling the ball. She WILL get it. Very nice work.
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
She's definitely doing great. When watching her video... she reminded me of someone, so I blasted through my collection and made a little comparison of her.

24wvtjk.gif


Couple of questions...

What kind of change does she throw?
Is this video you posted a drop or her fb?

As far as her I/R mechanics:

It appears she is unloading (I/R too soon) a little early, you can see her hand turn out (toward third) at the top of the circle, and although she appears to correct it by 9, she looks mostly unloaded at about 7-8 o'clock.

It's difficult to tell with the frame-rate of your camera, but her throwing shoulder movement and pronounced pronation after release, make it appear that she is rolling her arm/wrist through the release. Perhaps a little more work with "locking it in" and decelerating the upper arm.

One of the more difficult pieces of the i/r puzzle is the release and proper wrist flexion. This is further evidenced by her release occurring at the front knee, and not behind it, which would reduce her speed.

Here's a quick animation regarding the above:
1zfqtc0.gif


Her arm maintains a decent bend, but as you mentioned, does elongate during the I/R phase, which would increase the circle radius, and reduce the angular acceleration that is achieved during this phase. It appears her circle is longer in the back of the circle, than the front.

Although it's important to open earlier than later, it really looks as if her shoulders are far too busy (some call it "noisy", as opposed to "quiet") in the motion, and appear to open at or more than 90-degrees. I like to keep it in the 70 range... but that's just personal taste. They look like they are doing work, rather than opening naturally and closing naturally in response to the hips. It'd be easier to see this with an angle from behind... but I'm playing a hunch...

Lastly, her arm/leg overlap is a little off. Her arm and legs go out in sync, as opposed to her arm being slightly behind. This is something to spend some time on, as it will definitely increase the angular velocity when she gets to I/R. This might be a little tougher than some pitchers, as she does not incorporate a backswing in her motion. Get those legs energized a little earlier. Her leg extension should be reaching its maximum as her arm reaches 3:00. You can see she reaches maximum extension at about 1:00.

qpggma.jpg


Here's a slower-motion version that will help you see some of the nuances I mentioned.

idhhn5.gif


As far as the change-up... again... what type is she throwing? I've noticed that the flip can exacerbate early load/arm rolling (as early i/r is key) so maybe it would benefit her to try a different type (even if she's not throwing the flip...

Hope some of this helps...

All-in-all she's doing really, really, well. You should be proud... and not get too angry at any suggestions made... as I'm really nitpicking.

You've done a marvelous job together. Keep up the good work.
 
Oct 10, 2012
502
16
Oklahoma
Wow, thank you so much for all the encouraging feedback!

She has been working on a two fingered knuckle change where she essentially pushes and "pops" the ball at release. It works pretty good but like I mentioned, i am scared that the pushing motion in that changeup is affecting her overall mechanics. After reading the feedback im beginning to think im just one of those crazy pitching parents!

As for the backswing in the premotion, that is something we have been thinking about trying. Any thoughts on the pros and cons for trying it? Will that just add one more motion to the overall mechanics to "worry" about? Basically, does the backswing add enough to the pitch to justify adding?

Again, thank you for the positive feedback!!
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,800
63
JS.......Dude........Really nice job here..........It's a little scary how much you sound like me......

Including recognizing and commenting on the Overlap issue.........Something I began speaking about here almost 2 years ago........Either someone's been paying attention........Or someone really knows his stuff.......Either way........EXCELLENT JOB...........

Boomer........I completely agree with his small backswing comment for your DD.........I thought I'd mentioned this to you before, but maybe it was someone else. It doesn't even have to feel like a backswing.........She can just drop the ball out of the glove when it drops down to the back hip.......ANYTHING to create proper overlap and break the inertia of a static foward push of the throwing arm.......

IMO........Eliminating this move, or the backswing in general by pushing straight out of the glove, as advocated on this board by some, is something I could never get on board with for younger kids trying to develop a powerfull overall sequence, with overlap..........The "push and go" mentality is killing so much momentum in young kids it's not funny....

She's definitely doing great. When watching her video... she reminded me of someone, so I blasted through my collection and made a little comparison of her.

24wvtjk.gif


Couple of questions...

What kind of change does she throw?
Is this video you posted a drop or her fb?

As far as her I/R mechanics:

It appears she is unloading (I/R too soon) a little early, you can see her hand turn out (toward third) at the top of the circle, and although she appears to correct it by 9, she looks mostly unloaded at about 7-8 o'clock.

It's difficult to tell with the frame-rate of your camera, but her throwing shoulder movement and pronounced pronation after release, make it appear that she is rolling her arm/wrist through the release. Perhaps a little more work with "locking it in" and decelerating the upper arm.

One of the more difficult pieces of the i/r puzzle is the release and proper wrist flexion. This is further evidenced by her release occurring at the front knee, and not behind it, which would reduce her speed.

Here's a quick animation regarding the above:
1zfqtc0.gif


Her arm maintains a decent bend, but as you mentioned, does elongate during the I/R phase, which would increase the circle radius, and reduce the angular acceleration that is achieved during this phase. It appears her circle is longer in the back of the circle, than the front.

Although it's important to open earlier than later, it really looks as if her shoulders are far too busy (some call it "noisy", as opposed to "quiet") in the motion, and appear to open at or more than 90-degrees. I like to keep it in the 70 range... but that's just personal taste. They look like they are doing work, rather than opening naturally and closing naturally in response to the hips. It'd be easier to see this with an angle from behind... but I'm playing a hunch...

Lastly, her arm/leg overlap is a little off. Her arm and legs go out in sync, as opposed to her arm being slightly behind. This is something to spend some time on, as it will definitely increase the angular velocity when she gets to I/R. This might be a little tougher than some pitchers, as she does not incorporate a backswing in her motion. Get those legs energized a little earlier. Her leg extension should be reaching its maximum as her arm reaches 3:00. You can see she reaches maximum extension at about 1:00.

qpggma.jpg


Here's a slower-motion version that will help you see some of the nuances I mentioned.

idhhn5.gif


As far as the change-up... again... what type is she throwing? I've noticed that the flip can exacerbate early load/arm rolling (as early i/r is key) so maybe it would benefit her to try a different type (even if she's not throwing the flip...

Hope some of this helps...

All-in-all she's doing really, really, well. You should be proud... and not get too angry at any suggestions made... as I'm really nitpicking.

You've done a marvelous job together. Keep up the good work.
 
Dec 3, 2012
636
16
West Coast
BM, Arms and legs go up together for maximum push off is taught by many. Would one why to convey overlap to a young one be, Instead of hand and knee going up together, have your hand meet your stride foot at it maximum point. Does that make sense? Whats the best why to teach overlap?

Boomers2012, I still think she looks great. She is young and not as strong and mature as the sample pitcher. Her hand size and a 12 inch ball might make it hard for her to pull the ball down. I cut my DD some slack because of her small hand to the ball size that she uses. The things that were pointed out to you are important, overlap and tighter I/R but nothing that can't be slowly improved with more emphasis on them in practice.
 

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