Internal Rotation

Not to worry. Just finished ordering the BH videos to provide additional direction. Between BM, BH, the EH site, and all the fine folks here, I feel that I've increased the odds of helping my daughter.

I appreciate all the information that has been shared with me. Thanks


Paul

With this motion I tend to end up in a motion where my ball hand nearly touch the opposite shoulder, kind of like the front arm in an at-bat-ready form. So it seems like the upper arm didn't move much after the release, only the formarm(and the hand) moved a lot.
Is that a good follow through?

Hillhouse said:

I tell people to keep the ball and palm of my hand facing 3rd base during the arm circle. IF they do this, then at the release, my fingers will be pointing to the ground and the ball should roll straight off them.

Bill

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I know this thread may be cold but as I went back and reread it I came across this little quote from Bill that basically goes against BoardMember's inner rotation method. Bill, if you come back to this thread, explain why you don't feel palm up at the 9 o'clock position is valid. I have taught in the past the palm at 3rd base or as Kempf taught, to hold the ball like a glass of water at the 9 o'clock position. I started working the palm up position with one of my pitchers about a month ago and I feel she is getting comfortable with the motion. I went to gun her this past Sunday to check for any increase in speed but unfortunately the batteries were dead. So I'll check her this weekend and report. She is a 13 year old I have been working with for just a year. She has gone from throwing 35 - 37 last year to a best of 51 back in early June. Our goal is lower 50's for cruising in games by this winter's 6 on 6 league games. Would like to hear from others who have had success or failure with using the inner rotation / palm up motion compared to palm at 3rd base / hold the glass method. I am wondering if this palm up move is something only elite athletes can pull off? Most golfers can't make Tiger like moves in their swing either.

I had a long talk with my daughters pitching coach on IR, I showed him the video’s and the description of what makes it an internal rotation pitching style posted on this forum.

He is an old timer and I won’t mention his name without his permission, but he has coached for around 45 years. Iincluding a number of division one players and some of the women who are playing in the pro leagues today. He has some former students who are pitching coaches that I’ve seen mentioned on this forum. He has students that drive hours to take lessons from him.

Anyway after review the material IR he advised that is what the old timers called the floppy fish delivery. He advised it became popular years ago, he advised that back then some of the pitchers using it were more side arming the ball and umpires began calling an illegal pitch on the ones doing it correctly also and it was gradually gotten away from.

Any way just thought I would let you guys know what he said.

PEPPERS said:

I had a long talk with my daughters pitching coach on IR, I showed him the video’s and the description of what makes it an internal rotation pitching style posted on this forum.

He is an old timer and I won’t mention his name without his permission, but he has coached for around 45 years. Iincluding a number of division one players and some of the women who are playing in the pro leagues today. He has some former students who are pitching coaches that I’ve seen mentioned on this forum. He has students that drive hours to take lessons from him.

Anyway after review the material IR he advised that is what the old timers called the floppy fish delivery. He advised it became popular years ago, he advised that back then some of the pitchers using it were more side arming the ball and umpires began calling an illegal pitch on the ones doing it correctly also and it was gradually gotten away from.

Any way just thought I would let you guys know what he said.

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Pepper, all I can say is he obviously doesn't fully understand the bio-mechanical process by which ALL high level pitchers throw the ball. Which doesn't suprise me at all......Especially if he's an "old timer".....Hell my dad fought the "touch tone phone" mechanics of dialing tooth and nail........

It has nothing at all to do with "side-arm" pitching.......

It has everything to do with what EVERY high level pitcher does to create whip......vs. pulling the ball down and pushing it through release......

Odds are.....IF he was/is a pitcher......He uses internal rotation to "throw the ball" underhand.........

And also odds are.......IF your DD is any good.....she uses it as well.......It's about understanding WHAT makes her good, and knowing how to "exploit" the mechanics that make her good.........

These are from a series of 60 fps shots I took of the pitchers at a Stanford vs Arizona game last year. Of these, only Jennifer Martinez could be said to have a "floppy fish" delivery. In the case of Missy Penna, all of her pitches are thrown with a more or less straight arm. Still, all three pitchers clearly rotate externally through the first two frames (Martinez goes even further, and reaches her limit in the third frame), then internally rotate through release, at least on their fast balls:




Gene

BoardMember said:

Pepper, all I can say is he obviously doesn't fully understand the bio-mechanical process by which ALL high level pitchers throw the ball. Which doesn't suprise me at all......Especially if he's an "old timer".....Hell my dad fought the "touch tone phone" mechanics of dialing tooth and nail........

It has nothing at all to do with "side-arm" pitching.......

It has everything to do with what EVERY high level pitcher does to create whip......vs. pulling the ball down and pushing it through release......

Odds are.....IF he was/is a pitcher......He uses internal rotation to "throw the ball" underhand.........

And also odds are.......IF your DD is any good.....she uses it as well.......It's about understanding WHAT makes her good, and knowing how to "exploit" the mechanics that make her good.........

Click to expand...

I have to admit I’m not sure I fully understand it fully myself, but I’m trying to learn.

Thanks for your responses and the series of photos. We’ve tried other coaches and she seems to click with this coach. In 13 – 14 last year she pitched 3 perfect games and a few games she was hit hard also. When she was 12 she was throwing around 56 – 59 consistent and a few times 61 that is with a glove radar don’t know accurate those are. This coach teaches spin and location and not to be so concerned so much with speed.

The main thing is she enjoys pitching and loves softball.

Yes, bwalk63, I found that one full second is generally more than enough to capture the pitching motion from the initiation of the stride to the follow through, so I did wind up with quite a few of the complete sequences at 60 fps. However, for the purpose of this discussion, the six frame series I posted are probably the most relevant ones.

Nevertheless, I took some 300 fps slow-mo videos of the action as well. Here are two that you might find interesting:

Penna pitching to Buchanan
<object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=8791514&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=8791514&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/8791514">Penna Pitching</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user516005">Gene</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Martinez pitching to Hassman
<object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=8791460&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=8791460&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/8791460">Martinez Pitching</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user516005">Gene</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

My autofocus was mesmerized by the fence in that last one, but you can still make out most of the details. Note Leles' form throwing to first for the out...

Gene

Gene, who is the dark haired young lady in your other clips?.......(No names please). And what magic team is that?......

The Side by Sides of the two girls is interesting........Are they both throwing the same pitches just for the clip during warm ups?......IE simple fastball or something?

The young lady in the black hair looks very good.

The other is struggling with I/R, and has a much slower arm swing as she transitions over the top and attempts to push the ball down........

You can see her hand rotate to the back of the ball as she transitions over the top from 12 to 10 oclock........Since the shoulder joint doesn't like that position, she bends forward at the torso to relieve the pressure on the shoulder and assist the push......

Do they have a same pitching coach?

Last....what camera are you using and how much $$$?........

BoardMember said:

Gene, who is the dark haired young lady in your other clips?.......(No names please). And what magic team is that?......

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I've learned my lesson and will have to plead the fifth on this one, BM, owing to the age of these young ladies, including the one who may or may not be my DD, who plays for a community team that may or may not be located in Los Gatos - Saratoga

She was coached by one of those recalcitrant bucket dads, who nevertheless drew heavily from Cheri Kempf's book and video for tips and inspiration, including the underhand football toss and net-grabbing drills, which helped her develop an IR-type release before either she or her dad became conscious of the reason for doing so through reading this thread - for which they are among the many grateful.

Thanks also for the positive comment regarding her form. She is quite strong, but stiff as a plank; and at barely over 5'1", she is beyond 'short' per the accepted criteria for pitchers. All that is being hoped for at this point is that by working to make her mechanics more efficient, she could at least keep pace with those who were born into the other end of the gene pool, for as long as she is learning and having fun facing this particular challenge.

All three videos of her were taken during a pre-game warm up, where she and her teammate were just loosening up throwing fastballs. The side by side shot was a total coincidence. I didn't realize how close their timing was until I played back the video. Yes, I thought the contrast was pretty interesting as well.

My stills and videos were all taken with a Casio EX-F1. It set me back $1 k two years ago, but has been worth every penny. The EX-F1 can be had for around $600 on eBay these days, and Casio makes several much cheaper alternatives that offer the same cool features (mentioned in at least one other recent thread). However, the better lens on the EX-F1 (with slightly larger apertures that allow for faster shutter speed), as well as its larger CMOS and superior video compression format make the price difference quite acceptable, in my opinion.

Gene