Internal Rotation

rudy 001 said:

BOARDMEMBER - I am sitting here watching the replay of the college world series and it seems like to me that Stacey Nelson is throwing an combination of a screwball and a drop ball. HOW IS SHE DOING THAT in context of the internal/external discussion? Thanks for the "stuff" on the change (awesome)!

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Of course without the benefit of watching the same video, here's what I'll offer.........

As I've said before, rotation of the ball is NOT 2 dimensional........

If you start with 6-12 spin on a clock face (when viewed from the mound), and turn that clock face so the "3" is closer to you and the "9" moves away from you, you will be imparting "INWARD AXIS" 6-12 spin.........That is actually how I teach fastball.........

Internal rotation is STILL going on.......but the thumb comes off earlier, when the ball is still slightly orientated slightly outside the wrist. When this happens, the spin will result in "inward/forward rotation", or from the mound, approx. an 8-2 axis of the 6-12 rotation.........The Result, is a "bite" inward/downward under the hands..............

Capish?...........

Here's a caviot.........

When young pitchers are being taught to throw the ball......They should be missing INSIDE from imparting slightly more inward spin then forward spin...........

All of my very young RH pitchers ALWAYS hit more RH batters then any other pitchers around, because they are learning internal rotation with a release that facilitates maximum velocity.........Which causes the ball to be released with slightly inward rotation........

BM -- capish!

Questions. Does the body position change at all to throw this inward drop or is it as simple as changing the face of the clock?

And when exactly doe the thumb come off. It sounds like you want your young pitchers to get it off eary. Is that why they hit RH batters. What effect do YOU want the thumb coming off have on the internal rotation?

Why do you think Nelson stuggled in the championship game. Michelle Smith talked about Nelson's hip angle not being exactly right and she also talked about her weight being too far back. ANY logic to that? Do you agree or can you explain what Smith was talking about?

Your explanations are VERY GOOD and understandable. Thanks!

BM, am I understanding that you teach a fastball? moreover, you teach a fastball with a sidespin rotation? Maybe I don't capish.

I'm not sure I totally understand all that is being explained here. Mechanically, I don't believe anything has to change for the inshoot drop. It's a simple matter of pressure points. Squeezing the ball very very hard with the index finger side of the ball means the ball will come off that side of the hand LAST and the ball will have an inside tail to it. I'm not sure I get all this other stuff about hip angles and everything else. But then again, I"m not really into the whole notion that pitchers need to change their mechanics to make a ball spin differently. Personally I think many people teach all these different mechanics for different pitches because their foundation is flawed from the start. Therefore, the only way they can spin the ball different is to alter their mechanics. Many want to blame gender on this and say girls are different. While that is true to an extent, I believe the majority of difference between women and men pitchers is what is taught, not gender. My mechanics are identical to that of Cat Osterman when compared at the key points of the motion using Right View Pro. is this a coincidence?

Bill

Hillhouse -- can you show us your side to side comparison of you and CAT so we can understand the core mechanics?

BoardMember said:

Internal rotation is STILL going on.......but the thumb comes off earlier, when the ball is still slightly orientated slightly outside the wrist. When this happens, the spin will result in "inward/forward rotation", or from the mound, approx. an 8-2 axis of the 6-12 rotation.........The Result, is a "bite" inward/downward under the hands..............

Capish?...........

Here's a caviot.........

When young pitchers are being taught to throw the ball......They should be missing INSIDE from imparting slightly more inward spin then forward spin...........

All of my very young RH pitchers ALWAYS hit more RH batters then any other pitchers around, because they are learning internal rotation with a release that facilitates maximum velocity.........Which causes the ball to be released with slightly inward rotation........

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The learning here never stops.

How would I start fixing this issue? My lefty dd does this constantly. I am very consistent with regards to depth of leap, landing, and release, but between 5 and 7 something is happening and I don't know where to start. It seems like changing her power line would just be a band-aid fix.

Any suggestions on the 5 -7 issue? I have never considered different finger pressures or positions.

FYI She's age 11, 5'2, and 90 lbs. with long arms.

I may be not understanding, because the is SO much to read, but isn't this the same bullet "corkscrew" spin that I said Nancy Evans teaches? In the post I got a "very few should be throwing this" from one expert, and Hillhouse you commented "No one should be throwing this." Like I said I may be completely not understanding because I didn't read it all. I do know Nancy teaches the bullet spin on a fast ball with the idea that the pitch is probably not going to be thrown after learning some movement pitches.

"If you start with 6-12 spin on a clock face (when viewed from the mound), and turn that clock face so the "3" is closer to you and the "9" moves away from you, you will be imparting "INWARD AXIS" 6-12 spin.........That is actually how I teach fastball.........

Internal rotation is STILL going on.......but the thumb comes off earlier, when the ball is still slightly orientated slightly outside the wrist. When this happens, the spin will result in "inward/forward rotation", or from the mound, approx. an 8-2 axis of the 6-12 rotation"

This is good stuff. I think an example of what BM is explaining is demonstrated in post #31 in the video clip of Angelica Selden. You can see her thumb come off of the ball early in the release, allowing inward/forward rotation. With the thumb on the ball, the forearm will pronate. When the thumb is removed, the forearm is no longer driven to pronate, allowing the fingers to take a path that results in inward/forward rotation.

Steve

Please some further description between the last moment of "arm pointing ground, palm still facing 3B" and the first moment of "ball not touched by any fingers" phase would be really valuable.

How should the ball roll off? Is there a final touch by the fingers? What's the orientation of the fingers?

Rudy.. I had someone else show me the RVP thing, I don't own a copy of RVP.

RedHot.... keep in mind, I don't believe in teaching girls to throw a "fastball" period, let alone a bullet spinning one. Why on God's earth would I want to teach them how to throw a ball that doesn't move? Moreover, teaching someone bullet spin/corkscrew spin can be a nightmare to fix. This is why many people teach multiple "mechanics" for multiple pitches, because the spin is not straight. I don't know what is on Nancy Evan's video or what she teaches so, this is not an indictment of her. All I'm saying is, I don't do that, I don't agree with it, and I sure don't teach it. If you can endure it and listen to the ESPN announces, Michele Smith, Nuevman, Mendoza, etc. all say that at the upper echelon level, pitchers do not throw fastballs because they will get smashed. Personally, I have never thrown a straight fastball on purpose that didn't move. Every time I throw a ball that doesn't move, it gets YACKED out of yard. So, I am a believe in teaching them NOT to throw it from the beginning. So, IMHO teaching them to throw it (especially with bullet spin) then getting them to UNLEARN that would be like asking them to start over again with pitching later in life. This is insanity to me.

Abbygale, finger pressure will do the trick. Handsize will be a factor so this may be something she cannot do yet.

The other thing that needs to be said, if the spin is incorrect out of the hand and is NOT 6/12 rotation, this can be because the wrist is cocked or turned incorrectly during the arm circle. It may not be a "body mechanics" issue at all. If the wrist is twisted or turned strangely, then the ball will reach it's release point in a strange way also.. this results in bad spin. It's a slight exaggeration but leads them to understand it... I tell people to keep the ball and palm of my hand facing 3rd base during the arm circle. IF they do this, then at the release, my fingers will be pointing to the ground and the ball should roll straight off them. if I want the ball to slide inside, I will squeeze harder with my index finger and the ball will come off that side last.. making it "cut" in.

Bill

Hillhouse said:

Rudy.. I had someone else show me the RVP thing, I don't own a copy of RVP.

Abbygale, finger pressure will do the trick. Handsize will be a factor so this may be something she cannot do yet.

The other thing that needs to be said, if the spin is incorrect out of the hand and is NOT 6/12 rotation, this can be because the wrist is cocked or turned incorrectly during the arm circle. It may not be a "body mechanics" issue at all. If the wrist is twisted or turned strangely, then the ball will reach it's release point in a strange way also.. this results in bad spin. It's a slight exaggeration but leads them to understand it... I tell people to keep the ball and palm of my hand facing 3rd base during the arm circle. IF they do this, then at the release, my fingers will be pointing to the ground and the ball should roll straight off them. if I want the ball to slide inside, I will squeeze harder with my index finger and the ball will come off that side last.. making it "cut" in.

Bill

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Creating finger pressure ?

Would I want even spacing of the fingers on the ball with the thumb directly across from the middle finger? Does thumb placement have a large impact on the supination of the wrist?

Would I want the pressure to come directly down from the finger pad or would it be better to lay the index finger on its side a little bit (between index and middle) I'm assuming that more pressure is needed on the index finger side, correct?

Thanks again

When she grips with the seams, there is a lot of fun movement on the ball most of the time, typically up and down,down,down. When she grips across the seams it just comes in straight. She hates gripping with the seams and I don't know or understand if it matters at this stage of her learning. Thoughts?

I see that Bill and Boardmember both are in agreement on the no no's of a straight fastball and I understand why. What would be a solid first pitch to acquire once the mechanics are established?